IR35 "Bullying" - Being pushed inside IR35 by Agency and Client

[kingcook]

How about you offer to have some named project in the contract and offer to have a 0 day notice period?

Inform them that you'll be happy to look at other projects as they appear in the future, subject to terms/etc being agreed at the time? Just a thought...

[EMEAfixer]

There is not much you can do here except accept the changed conditions or decline and move on.

You are a business, not an employee (aren't you?), you have negotiated contracts - not employee rights.

I had a client who tried something similar, pushing for contract terms which I felt were too risky in the context of IR35.

I made them two offers. One with my default contract terms (outside IR35) and my normal rate, the other with their terms (inside IR35) and a significantly higher rate. I didn't mind which they would choose, my net take home would be the same.

They choose my contract terms and my normal rate.

You are a business. Do the maths and work out what rate you would be prepared to work at under the terms they are asking for, and be prepared to walk if they don't accept.

[AussieDigger]

How about you offer to have some named project in the contract and offer to have a 0 day notice period?

Inform them that you'll be happy to look at other projects as they appear in the future, subject to terms/etc being agreed at the time? Just a thought...

This is the problem, the client won't accept the project being listed in the contract.

[kingcook]

This is the problem, the client won't accept the project being listed in the contract.

Yes but by offering a 0 day notice period, they are free to terminate and move you onto another project (subject to terms being agreed).

Or are the client really really stubborn?

[northernladuk]

Personally I would be out of this one like a scalded cat for a number of reasons...

1. If the client wants this it is likely his whole attitude to you all along has been the same so in an investigation he is going to shaft you royally. It is one thing having your contract outside IR35 but a whole different matter if the client has just been playing the game and won't back this up in court. He only needs to make one comment about his relationship with you to sink you. 90% correct is not enough. If his attitude is so blase you are screwed IMO.

2. The future situation puts you inside. Period. If you stay and change your status you will be raising a huge flag to HMRC to come have a sniff. Even if the numbers as you inside might be acceptable to you the risk of it coming your round your ears won't be. As already mentioned the JLJ looks like a twin of this and they partially won that so using case law this will be an easy win/part win for them.

3. You have hit the 24 month rule and I presume that you are not claiming subsistence and travelling anymore so a double hit on your rate

4. You are a contractor, not a permie. 2 years at one client is more than long enough. Suck it up and get back in to the market for a new gig.

I can't see a reason to leave that is anymore black and white than this one to be honest.

[northernladuk]

Oh.. and this isn't bullying. It is a change in business and you have to change to match. The client wants to change his terms and you have to make a decision based on it. It's not bullying FFS.

[d000hg]

Tell them you'll accept the changes if they increase your rate by 20% (or whatever it would be) and then assume you're in IR35, OR they can fix the contract at your old rate. £££ might motivate them to BE bothered,

[lithium147]

There are many different kinds of contracts. I work with some of my clients on a freelance basis. So I have an indefinite contract with each of these clients. Just basically says how we will work together. But doesn't mention time frames. Then for each project we agree a fixed cost and deliverables, kind of like a statement of work. I can do as many of these in parallel as I like.

So perhaps you could think outside the box and come up with another still of contract..

[SueEllen]

There are many different kinds of contracts. I work with some of my clients on a freelance basis. So I have an indefinite contract with each of these clients. Just basically says how we will work together. But doesn't mention time frames. Then for each project we agree a fixed cost and deliverables, kind of like a statement of work. I can do as many of these in parallel as I like.

So perhaps you could think outside the box and come up with another still of contract..

If you are direct you can use purchase orders and other such things if an agency is in the middle then the project needs to be defined as your contract needs to mimic the agency's one with the client.

[mudskipper]

I'd be cautious about letting the tax man drive my business.

This.

I think we're correct to be aware of IR35 and its implications, and do what we can to ensure that we're outside, but we shouldn't be so paranoid about it that we're turning down work. Do your best to remain outside in your working practices, join PCG and keep invoicing. The chances of being investigated are still small - so until that changes its just a bogeyman living under the stairs.