Training course and IR35

**northernladuk** · 11 July 2012, 21:28

Searched and couldn't find these two examples that have vitually the same title?

http://forums.contractoruk.com/welco...med-issue.html

http://forums.contractoruk.com/accou...ning-ir35.html

Nothing wrong with the client giving you training on their tools. You can't be expected to know in house and bespoke tools so is perfectly reasonable to go on it and be outside IR35.

He wants you to go on it... He pays...... no free days for him

**ItContractor123** · 11 July 2012, 21:32

It was only mentioned today and I am not definite if it will happen. It is not in house or a bespoke tool (its a big vendor rapid development tool). I am not sure if its enforced as such. If I am not interested they might just get another contractor in who has used it before or outsource part of the development work (whilst keeping me on).

If I have the option to go on it I would like to as any new knowledge is good knowledge in my book but if its an optional course does this matter for IR35?
I suppose not going on it will mean my position is under threat by the outsourced part or another contractor and by going on it I will increase the likelihood of a successful delivery of the project that I am contracted to complete.

**kingcook** · 11 July 2012, 21:37

Originally posted by ItContractor123 View Post

I have used search but haven't managed to find a reliable answer.

I am currently in my first contract and the project specified on the advert didn't contain loads of detail.
I am perfectly capable of the backend development work and the contract itself is to deliver a specific project.

Due to resourcing issues at the client end the responsiblity of the front end development work may need to be completed at least partially (and probably > 50% by me)
The clients preferred method for delivery will be development in house using a rapid development tool I am unfamilar with.

The client may soon request that to meet the deadline one permanent member of staff and myself should go on a course for this development tool.

I was just wondering if this would have an issue in terms of IR35 and if not should I invoice for days worked whilst on the training course?

So you can do the backend work, good. But the fact that the client are asking you to help out with frontend work using something you are unfamiliar with says D&C (direction and control) to me.

Of course D&C is just one factor in determining your IR35 status, but the fact that they seem to be treating you like they would a permie doesn't look good.

While working with a previous client of mine, I once got asked if i could do something with Puppet (some application), but i declined saying i know nothing about Puppet so would be unable to provide services relating to it.

You could state something like your professional indemnity insurance wouldn't cover you for this?

**northernladuk** · 11 July 2012, 21:41

Originally posted by kingcook View Post

So you can do the backend work, good. But the fact that the client are asking you to help out with frontend work using something you are unfamiliar with says D&C (direction and control) to me.

Of course D&C is just one factor in determining your IR35 status, but the fact that they seem to be treating you like they would a permie doesn't look good.

Very good point indeed

**TestMangler** · 11 July 2012, 21:49

Originally posted by northernladuk View Post

Searched and couldn't find these two examples that have vitually the same title?

http://forums.contractoruk.com/welco...med-issue.html

http://forums.contractoruk.com/accou...ning-ir35.html

Nothing wrong with the client giving you training on their tools. You can't be expected to know in house and bespoke tools so is perfectly reasonable to go on it and be outside IR35.

He wants you to go on it... He pays...... no free days for him

He didn't say he didn't find them. He said he had been 'unable to find a reliable answer'.

Thats par for the course on here though. Answers, mostly, from people who make them up

**ItContractor123** · 11 July 2012, 21:51

I am not sure if it will actually happen. The brief discussion I have had was that they might want to do this and I can simply refuse.

However if I think it would be a useful course/skill to gain then what would be the best way in doing this whilst.
1) Ensuring I don't fall foul of IR35
2) I don't lose the company money by being on a training course when I should be invoicing/working.

**Platypus** · 11 July 2012, 22:46

Originally posted by kingcook View Post

But the fact that the client are asking you to help out with frontend work using something you are unfamiliar with says D&C (direction and control) to me.

Of course D&C is just one factor in determining your IR35 status, but the fact that they seem to be treating you like they would a permie doesn't look good.

Oh talk about paranoid

Originally posted by ItContractor123 View Post

they might want to do this and I can simply refuse.

You could. I wouldn't.

Originally posted by ItContractor123 View Post

However if I think it would be a useful course/skill to gain then what would be the best way in doing this whilst.
1) Ensuring I don't fall foul of IR35
2) I don't lose the company money by being on a training course when I should be invoicing/working.

You should go. In the extremely unlikely event that HMRC investigates you, in the then even more unlikely event that they talk to the client AND ask about training courses, in the even more unlikely event that the client PM says "I made him go" then I can't deny that it might be a small factor among a whole range of other factors.

I'd probably say something along the lines that client liked the work I had done, so preferred not to hire in an unknown new contractor for the new stuff, didn't have budget for another contractor full time on the team, so I volunteered and client agreed that the project knowledge I had already gained made this the most viable and cost effective route forward. Simple business decision for him and for me.

**Platypus** · 11 July 2012, 22:53

Content deleted - posted twice.

**b0redom** · 11 July 2012, 23:35

@ kingcook + northern lad

Sounds like a bit of a paranoid scenario to me. Consider the case - I just had a bit of my house rewired. I was really happy with the workmanship and the finish.

I said to the sparky, "You did an awesome job, could you run a bunch of networking cables for me?"
"Well I can, but I don't know how to terminate them properly."
"Ok here's some instruction on how to do it."

How is that different to what's being described? He's not being forced into the work. It's being offered - at least that's how it reads.

Training course and IR35