Orange Genie: umbrella won't let me submit invoices.

[TestMangler]

Actually, given a detailed understanding of the case law and the indicators for being outside IR35, plus some very expert representation on hand should I ever need to defend my position, and working at a level where I am pretty much free to decide how I work, yes I do...

What is more, far be it for me to criticise the gurus of HMRC, but the ESI is asking questions that are not relevant to the discussion about the engagement. You are acting as an employee if you cannot genuinely demonstrate an absence of control OR an irreducible mutuliaty of obligaion OR a right to send a substitue to do the work. All else is irrelevant, it is merely used to assess the reality of those three conditions.

And if you want an expert view on your status, the last people to ask are HMRC. That's been standing advice for eleven years.

Now, THAT is very very true

Back in the early days of IR35, certain agencies were advising contractors to submit their contracts to HMRC to asses. I advised anyone I knew not to be so feckin' stupid.

I never saw HMRC respond with anything other than 'you are inside'.

I had a colleague who phoned for an opinion despite not having a contract !! (We were on a call-off purchase order direct to client). HMRC told him it was illegal to work without a contract !! h e ended up copying a current agency contract from another colleague and got a letter back saying that he was inside IR35 because he had to complete timesheets !!

I ended up writing back to them on his behalf quoting a couple of bits of case law and pointing out that they had selected one or two pointers to 'contract of service' and completely ignored any pointers to 'contract for services'. They eventually wrote back and agreed that his contract was 'outside'. Bear in mind, this was probably all done by someone in an HMRC office with no knowledge of IR35 other than their own web based guidance.

My rule with HMRC has always been, "if in doubt, don't ask them". Ask someone else.

[LisaContractorUmbrella]

Actually, given a detailed understanding of the case law and the indicators for being outside IR35, plus some very expert representation on hand should I ever need to defend my position, and working at a level where I am pretty much free to decide how I work, yes I do...

What is more, far be it for me to criticise the gurus of HMRC, but the ESI is asking questions that are not relevant to the discussion about the engagement. You are acting as an employee if you cannot genuinely demonstrate an absence of control OR an irreducible mutuliaty of obligaion OR a right to send a substitue to do the work. All else is irrelevant, it is merely used to assess the reality of those three conditions.

And if you want an expert view on your status, the last people to ask are HMRC. That's been standing advice for eleven years.

OK Mal so what you're saying is that no-one needs to fear a brown envelope from HMR&C but they should be really worried if they get something in the post from the PCG????

[malvolio]

OK Mal so what you're saying is that no-one needs to fear a brown envelope from HMR&C

Only if they know what they're doing...

but they should be really worried if they get something in the post from the PCG????

Oh yes. If it's in the post from the PCG it'll be either Freelancing Matters or a voting form... Both can be quite scary.

[northernladuk]

Only if they know what they're doing...

But people who do know what they are doing get brown letters from HMRC which starts a whole world of misery as it is HMRC that doesn't know what it's doing. I don't think knowing what you are doing gives you immunity to HMRC attempting to ruin your life.

[malvolio]

But people who do know what they are doing get brown letters from HMRC which starts a whole world of misery as it is HMRC that doesn't know what it's doing. I don't think knowing what you are doing gives you immunity to HMRC attempting to ruin your life.

With 23 cases in the last year, I'll take my chances on not being miserabalised...

Also, let's not forget a vanishingly small number of status inquiries are random fishing - no more than 5 a week across 4.5 million small businesses - and set to reduce further as HMRC gets more targetted. The bulk arise from poor or inconsistent personal returns. Agreed a brolly kills that one at source, but so does a good accountant and a very small amount self-discipline in running YourCo

OTOH I have had brown envelopes from HMRC, which have been swatted back with some disdain by my accountant. And a recent white one containing a £1700 refund - three years late, but a refund nonetheless.

If only I could stop PCG sending me voting forms....

[LisaContractorUmbrella]

With 23 cases in the last year, I'll take my chances on not being miserabalised...

Also, let's not forget a vanishingly small number of status inquiries are random fishing - no more than 5 a week across 4.5 million small businesses - and set to reduce further as HMRC gets more targetted. The bulk arise from poor or inconsistent personal returns. Agreed a brolly kills that one at source, but so does a good accountant and a very small amount self-discipline in running YourCo

OTOH I have had brown envelopes from HMRC, which have been swatted back with some disdain by my accountant. And a recent white one containing a £1700 refund - three years late, but a refund nonetheless.

If only I could stop PCG sending me voting forms....

If you're a gambling man I bet you 50p there'll be a few more investigations post now that AWR has become law

[TheFaQQer]

With 23 cases in the last year, I'll take my chances on not being miserabalised...

At the moment, given the state of my "filing system", I'm more worried about a records check than I am about IR35.

[malvolio]

If you're a gambling man I bet you 50p there'll be a few more investigations post now that AWR has become law

Not at all, quite the opposite, in fact. AWR has the side effect of clarifying that a Ltd Co contractor is almost certainly in business and hence (in theory, at least) out of the scope of IR35. You will recall that recent IR35 cases such as ECR have hinged on clear evidence that the worker was acting as a business and therefore not as an employee. I have a sneaky feeling that IR35 will be pointed much more at F2Ms and forced incorporations (look up how many hotel chambermaids own their own companies...) than long-term career contractors. More cases, perhaps, but rather more intelligently applied.

[prozak]

At the moment, given the state of my "filing system", I'm more worried about a records check than I am about IR35.

+1

My recording of all transactions is good. My retention of the related receipts is poor.

[Big Bird]

What is happening?

We have a guy here who has been a contractor for 20 years and he doesn't know how to deal with an umbrella company. Why are we helping him at all? Besides, the recent replies are totally off-track. If you guys want to talk about something else, open a new thread.