BN66 - Court of Appeal and beyond

[smalldog]

Yawn.... Remember the appeals aren't lifted til its been thru the tax courts and until thsts happened nothing is payable. Are some of you either:

1) thick
2) ignoring this
3) assuming that will not yield a preferable outcome

[SantaClaus]

Yawn.... Remember the appeals aren't lifted til its been thru the tax courts and until thsts happened nothing is payable. Are some of you either:

1) thick
2) ignoring this
3) assuming that will not yield a preferable outcome

Based on past track records, I vote for 3)

[ContractIn]

HMRC's letter

Got my letter will wait for the next actions from them on finalising enquiries and appeals.

Very disappointing nothing from MP

[PurpleTurtle]

I got home today to two letters on the mat, both postmarked Scotland.

First was Alan's newsletter update, expected and thanks to the regulars of this forum not the unpleasant surprise he hoped it would be.

Second one was 25 quid from the Premium Bonds.

If you didn't laugh you'd cry!

Waiting to hear what MP have to say now, onwards and upwards.

[Maddog]

£25 in my repayment plan too !

I got home today to two letters on the mat, both postmarked Scotland.

First was Alan's newsletter update, expected and thanks to the regulars of this forum not the unpleasant surprise he hoped it would be.

Second one was 25 quid from the Premium Bonds.

If you didn't laugh you'd cry!

Waiting to hear what MP have to say now, onwards and upwards.

Got my spam letter today too, and my £25 premium bond win too! Not bad seeing I only had £125 invested.

The dog aint happy, but is currently working on plans as to how to pay the demand should the order to bend
over be finally given. Putting the £25 on Chelsea to win the Champions League should give good odds !
If the return leg doesn't go my way, and the Blues lose, will be a case of going cap in hand to my mortage provider + a top
up for the local loan sharks. Will also be deposing of the ISA's I bought for my retirement (thats been cancelled) - hopefully
market conditions continue improvements and they will have some value (glad I didnt go down the pensions route now).

Despite advice to contrary, if it comes to it, I will be seeking independent legal advice prior to parting
with any of my hard earned cash, just to explore all avenues to defend my position.

Will let you know if/when I do this and the advice provided.

Good luck to all !

Dog

[OnYourBikeGB]

I'm all for it. But it requires everyone to get involved. Couldn't help but notice that some people are appearing on this thread after many years of silence.

Do we want a campaign that is just a trickle of letters or a flood?

I'm in. For my pennies worth (which is pretty much all that will be left), I'd suggest that while we co-ordinate it, the letters should be personal. Name your partner, name your children, bring home that we are individuals, small business and family people who have been a plaything for the whims of HMRC. Explain how this has affected you, how it will affect your children's future.

Things worth highlighting on top of those already mentioned are that HMRC were never able to tell us what we had done wrong, even though we asked. At all times we were open and honest. The one time that HMRC did quote case law, they were wrong, and quoted a case that actually backed our position. I personally believe that this was a deliberate stalling tactic by HMRC. In some ways, you could argue that it was directly down to their 'advice' that some of us were no doubt encouraged to stay in the scheme, because HMRC had just shown that their demands were mistaken. HMRC failed to take this to the tax tribunal, despite our willingness to do so. I for one would never have thought of pushing the case forward when HMRC had already said that they were going to do it.

Yes, HMRC asked us to pay on account, but we could not afford to do so. The country was heading into recession, we are short term workers, could we really afford to hand over all we had when the future was so uncertain when HMRC were unable to provide a reason to do so?

Emphasis that having got it through Parliament as clarification, HMRC now freely refer to it as retrospection. The subtext being Parliament was duped, but I for one don't plan on saying that directly. No-one likes it being pointed out to them that they were mugged.

Be realistic in what you are asking for. They aren't going to help if you are asking to be let off. If you are asking for realistic payment terms to match your situation, or asking them to intercede re interest / NIC then that's a different matter.

Much as it goes against the grain given my hardened cynicism that has grown over the past few years, we are now asking MPs for their help. HMRC already have their opponents in Parliament, we cannot afford to be seen as arrogant or too full of righteous indignation, we are labelled as tax dodgers, no matter how unfair and unjust this process was. They will not want to be backing tax dodgers, but highlighting the unprecedented use of retrospection, especially reserved for little people such as ourselves, they may be prepared to ask a few awkward questions and apply some pressure on our behalf for fairer (there's that word again) treatment. There is injustice here, everyone knows that, we need our MPs to be a position where they can argue that without being damned for doing so.

Of course, should MontP ever manage to let us know what is going on, this might all be pointless. It's just my thoughts, feel free to disagree. I know it sounds pessimistic, but I don't see a lot of grounds for optimism.

[Lala]

7th February????

Hi

Have been following this thread for some time now, many thanks to all of you who have been posting useful information regularly.

I have a question, maybe silly but the letter I got from HMRC mentions the descision was made 7.2.12, why was then it only made 'Public' 21.2.12 ?

[SantaClaus]

I'm in. For my pennies worth (which is pretty much all that will be left), I'd suggest that while we co-ordinate it, the letters should be personal. Name your partner, name your children, bring home that we are individuals, small business and family people who have been a plaything for the whims of HMRC. Explain how this has affected you, how it will affect your children's future.

Things worth highlighting on top of those already mentioned are that HMRC were never able to tell us what we had done wrong, even though we asked. At all times we were open and honest. The one time that HMRC did quote case law, they were wrong, and quoted a case that actually backed our position. I personally believe that this was a deliberate stalling tactic by HMRC. In some ways, you could argue that it was directly down to their 'advice' that some of us were no doubt encouraged to stay in the scheme, because HMRC had just shown that their demands were mistaken. HMRC failed to take this to the tax tribunal, despite our willingness to do so. I for one would never have thought of pushing the case forward when HMRC had already said that they were going to do it.

Yes, HMRC asked us to pay on account, but we could not afford to do so. The country was heading into recession, we are short term workers, could we really afford to hand over all we had when the future was so uncertain when HMRC were unable to provide a reason to do so?

Emphasis that having got it through Parliament as clarification, HMRC now freely refer to it as retrospection. The subtext being Parliament was duped, but I for one don't plan on saying that directly. No-one likes it being pointed out to them that they were mugged.

Be realistic in what you are asking for. They aren't going to help if you are asking to be let off. If you are asking for realistic payment terms to match your situation, or asking them to intercede re interest / NIC then that's a different matter.

Much as it goes against the grain given my hardened cynicism that has grown over the past few years, we are now asking MPs for their help. HMRC already have their opponents in Parliament, we cannot afford to be seen as arrogant or too full of righteous indignation, we are labelled as tax dodgers, no matter how unfair and unjust this process was. They will not want to be backing tax dodgers, but highlighting the unprecedented use of retrospection, especially reserved for little people such as ourselves, they may be prepared to ask a few awkward questions and apply some pressure on our behalf for fairer (there's that word again) treatment. There is injustice here, everyone knows that, we need our MPs to be a position where they can argue that without being damned for doing so.

Of course, should MontP ever manage to let us know what is going on, this might all be pointless. It's just my thoughts, feel free to disagree. I know it sounds pessimistic, but I don't see a lot of grounds for optimism.

Some very good points there, OnYourBikeGB. The "entrapment" angle is a big one - the fact that HMRC delayed the process by 7 years to trap us into huge debts and interest charges could not be classed as fair by anyone, especially when the goalposts have moved.

If anyone has David Gauke as an MP, now might be the time to take him up on his original comment that we should wait for the courts process to end. Well it has, and now we'd like to revisit those original comments he made in 2008 when he was in opposition about how unfair a retrospective tax is.

This is a link to Emigre's letter to Gauke in July 2010. It contains all the relevant quotes from Hansard http://forums.contractoruk.com/accou...ml#post1166389

[OnYourBikeGB]

Some very good points there, OnYourBikeGB. The "entrapment" angle is a big one - the fact that HMRC delayed the process by 7 years to trap us into huge debts and interest charges could not be classed as fair by anyone, especially when the goalposts have moved.

If anyone has David Gauke as an MP, now might be the time to take him up on his original comment that we should wait for the courts process to end. Well it has, and now we'd like to revisit those original comments he made in 2008 when he was in opposition about how unfair a retrospective tax is.

This is a link to Emigre's letter to Gauke in July 2010. It contains all the relevant quotes from Hansard http://forums.contractoruk.com/accou...ml#post1166389

One other thing to stress, that if the original case given to us by HMRC was correct, that we were in the wrong, then we would have exited the scheme and paid what was due at that point. It's entrapment because the advice they offered caused us, even encouraged us, to stay in the scheme. It is not entrapment if their action made no difference, i.e. if we would have stayed in regardless. Entrapment is also as far as I know, only applicable in a criminal case, but their motives were the same.

[not-a-penny]

The Bottom Line ...

Got my letter will wait for the next actions from them on finalising enquiries and appeals.

Very disappointing nothing from MP

HMRC letter received today; Eagerly waiting for MP's.

For all our sakes I hope MP will pull a rabbit out of the bag and use the tribunals to at least buy us lots more time. The bottom line for me is that none of us should lose their homes or go through bankruptcy over this. Wishful thinking on my part but the aim of HMRC should be to get maximum return on what they think we owe. That won't be achieved by bankrupting people and make them unemployable. It makes more sense to secure the "debt" on the property with a grace time of say 5 years max. The bean counters will be happy as the sums show up in their tax collection projections and we have time to pay up in good time and remain gainfully employed and hopefully sane.

This unfair, retrospective, parliament misleading tax should not be punitive. That would be adding insult to injury. Yes we're being mugged in plain daylight, but raping the Mrs is not on. HMRC did make some noises about assessing the impact of the tax on the victims during the Parker court but I'm not holding my breath for that.

Our best bet is the politicians who saw through the S58 back in 2008 and are in government now. We need to push for the "clarification" to become prospective or at the very least a blanket understanding that people will not lose homes and become bankrupt in the next x years. Similar to what the government has already agreed with Banks to be more understanding with households with mortgage arrears.

I know for those in my situation, this is the bottom line. A co-ordinated petitioning campaign in every constituency and with thousands of us pulling together, that's a lot of constituencies, to get the MPs to draw the line. Fighting individually, we will be at the mercy of yet another judge who is just following the process.

Thank you all for keeping my wife and I sane. DR you are a superstar. Remember It ain't over till it's over.