All you people with EBT/Loan/Dodgy Umbrella schemes - what you gonna do?

[LisaContractorUmbrella]

I too have been with bedouin for about 7 months, and they have claims about another structure in place but this week they stopped paying me. I have had assurances three time this week that they would ay me today. So far no money has turned up. Is anyone else having trouble getting paid through Bedouin?

Have they given you any details of the new arrangement shyguy? I can't find anything on the website that gives any indication of how they are operating

[xsvoid]

bedouin

hi folks,

my first post - some interesting information here. I received a statement from one of the Bedouin sales girls stating that the new legislation does not affect employers or employees - it captures third parties like load and trust companies. They went on to say that the ministerial statement is also clear "commercial agreements are not covered by the regulations", and as such that Bedouin are compliant.

Now I have no idea how true this is, sounded a bit iffy but wanted your thoughts on this.

When I read the disguised renumeration page ( http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/d/disg...muneration.pdf ), it says on the first paragraph :

"Who is likely to be affected?
Employers, directors, and employees who use arrangements involving trusts and other vehicles
to avoid, reduce, or defer liabilities to income tax on rewards of an employment or to avoid
restrictions on pensions tax relief."

So bedouins statement seems a bit too ambiguous !!! dont know, interested in your thoughts.


Thx

Xs.

[Waldorf]

Oh god, how many times do we have to go through this?

Your time is up and time to move on, get yourself set up with a limited company and start sleeping at night.

I reckon the % take home is not much different, most of the money you "lost" was in fees to the scheme provider rather than taxes paid.

[LisaContractorUmbrella]

hi folks,

my first post - some interesting information here. I received a statement from one of the Bedouin sales girls stating that the new legislation does not affect employers or employees - it captures third parties like load and trust companies. They went on to say that the ministerial statement is also clear "commercial agreements are not covered by the regulations", and as such that Bedouin are compliant.

Now I have no idea how true this is, sounded a bit iffy but wanted your thoughts on this.

When I read the disguised renumeration page ( http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/d/disg...muneration.pdf ), it says on the first paragraph :

"Who is likely to be affected?
Employers, directors, and employees who use arrangements involving trusts and other vehicles
to avoid, reduce, or defer liabilities to income tax on rewards of an employment or to avoid
restrictions on pensions tax relief."

So bedouins statement seems a bit too ambiguous !!! dont know, interested in your thoughts.


Thx

Xs.

Their statement is not ambiguous Xs it's just wrong. HMR&C's statement however is unambiguous.

[Alan Jones]

Egyptian Tax Barristers

hi folks,

my first post - some interesting information here. I received a statement from one of the Bedouin sales girls stating that the new legislation does not affect employers or employees - it captures third parties like load and trust companies. They went on to say that the ministerial statement is also clear "commercial agreements are not covered by the regulations", and as such that Bedouin are compliant.

I try to restrict myself to reading this forum and NOT publishing BUT when i read such "twaddle" then ..........

A/ What Bedouin are trying to say is that if in the future i.e. post 8 Dec 2010, the loans are made by the employer to the employee this is OK (as opposed to the Employer Benefit Trust making the loan to the Employee). SORRY this is "poppycock wrong".

B/ Re Commercial Agreements are NOT caught . Bedouin are trying to say that if the loanns carry a commercial rate of interest then they are NOT caught. ONCE again rubbish. BECAUSE the draft legislation says Commercial Agreements are not caught unless it is part of a TAX AVOIDANCE ARRANGEMENT and the draft legislation then defines tax arrangement and the BEDOUIN scheme is caught.

FINALLY - if i was a member of such a scheme and its advisors were "spouting" out such "lies" in order to keep you in the scheme so that they can continue to receive fees then i would be very worried.

FINALLY FINALLY - what do i know . 28 years Qualified Accountant. 24 years tax specialist. 17 years offshore tax specialist. IR35 Tax Advisor since February 2000.

[pastalista]

I try to restrict myself to reading this forum and NOT publishing BUT when i read such "twaddle" then ..........

A/ What Bedouin are trying to say is that if in the future i.e. post 8 Dec 2010, the loans are made by the employer to the employee this is OK (as opposed to the Employer Benefit Trust making the loan to the Employee). SORRY this is "poppycock wrong".

B/ Re Commercial Agreements are NOT caught . Bedouin are trying to say that if the loanns carry a commercial rate of interest then they are NOT caught. ONCE again rubbish. BECAUSE the draft legislation says Commercial Agreements are not caught unless it is part of a TAX AVOIDANCE ARRANGEMENT and the draft legislation then defines tax arrangement and the BEDOUIN scheme is caught.

FINALLY - if i was a member of such a scheme and its advisors were "spouting" out such "lies" in order to keep you in the scheme so that they can continue to receive fees then i would be very worried.

FINALLY FINALLY - what do i know . 28 years Qualified Accountant. 24 years tax specialist. 17 years offshore tax specialist. IR35 Tax Advisor since February 2000.

Indeed.

Although the legislation hasn't been published in full yet, it is quite clear from the statement that if there is a "tax avoidance" element to any setup then it can't be considered commercial and is therefore caught by the legislation.

I have spoken with 7 providers who are all saying (for one reason or another) that their schemes are not caught by the new legislation. From my conversations with them it is clear to me that they are ALL caught by the new legislation and anybody joining the schemes is going to get hit at some stage.

Many of the providers are offering insurance and stating that they will "fight through the courts" any attack on the scheme by Hector but when absolutely pushed, they of course agree that any tax, penalties and interest arising would be "down to you". Some of the providers are also stating that they will assess "how far to fight - depending on our view of how likely we are to win the case" which means they may decide immediately not to fight and the supposed protection you would have received will vanish.

In any case, it is hard to see how they would win their fights so they are just going to be delaying the inevitable. Given how cash strapped the Government is right now, it is difficult to imagine that Hector will not push it all the way.

If you can afford to invest a reasonable amount of your LTD gross turnover into a pension scheme then the returns from a limited can be between 75% and 80% anyway. Better to bite the bullet now and take the income hit, and as someone else said, you'll sleep better at night too.

Remember, if these schemes were as watertight as the providers sugggest, they would surely be able to offer to pay any tax liability that resulted from their use as they would be sure it would never happen.

Pastalista

[Fred Bloggs]

If you can afford to invest a reasonable amount of your LTD gross turnover into a pension scheme then the returns from a limited can be between 75% and 80% anyway. Better to bite the bullet now and take the income hit, and as someone else said, you'll sleep better at night too.

Remember, if these schemes were as watertight as the providers sugggest, they would surely be able to offer to pay any tax liability that resulted from their use as they would be sure it would never happen.

Pastalista

A wise and sensible approach to take, I believe.

[Jog On]

According to the CUK front page a quote from SJD says IR35 2.0 might not be implemented until Budget 2013?

Tax unit to finalise IR35

I intend to be out of IT and contracting by then so think I might join the PCG, build up a healthy SIPP and invest in some assets through my LTD in the mean time

[malvolio]

According to the CUK front page a quote from SJD says IR35 2.0 might not be implemented until Budget 2013?

Tax unit to finalise IR35

I intend to be out of IT and contracting by then so think I might join the PCG, build up a healthy SIPP and invest in some assets through my LTD in the mean time

Slight disconnect between the comments and the reality I fear. If IR35 is repealed it won't happen until 2012 at the absolute earliest, that is for certain: the legislative processes simply won't allow it to be any quicker. But we really must not conflate IR35 - an ineffective abortion of a law that has no place on the statute books - with legislation intended to prevent the F2M scenario or legislation intended to prevent artificial avoidance of NICs on earned income. There is no reason to suppose at this stage that genuine contractors would be caught under either option. However, consultations will continue for a while yet, so I'm not sure such predictive panic is warranted or even helpful.

[v8gaz]

Good points, but what Mal forgot to mention was that joining PCG is still a good idea, whatever the outcome.