BN66 - Round 2 (Court of Appeal)

[moira under the stairs]

yes I got one at the weekend, asking Montp for more information. I also thought loans were ok up to 9th December 2010 when they changed the law (prospectively).

Why sound surprised, the HMRC haven’t a clue what they are doing !!! they are an absolute sham.(allegedly)

Apparently, the Change in Law is from April 2011, HMRC have indicated that they will look into cases if they carry on using Loan schemes from December, this only applies to Employer - Employee status.

[johnnyguitar]

We as individuals believe without doubt that out Tax forms and Tax Affairs were in order as they were submitted by 'Tax professionals' on our behalf.

That certainly hits the nail on the head for me. Add to that HMRC never wrote to me to say that they weren't happy with my returns.

[smalldog]

That certainly hits the nail on the head for me. Add to that HMRC never wrote to me to say that they weren't happy with my returns.

but if its an HMRC office that has to decide whether we fall inside A19 I reckon I know which side of the fence they will fall on!!! Surely it should be an independent..

[prozak]

yes I got one at the weekend, asking Montp for more information. I also thought loans were ok up to 9th December 2010 when they changed the law (prospectively).

thought he meant a director loan...

I guess it was an EBT or some such then?

[RockTheBoat]

yes I got one at the weekend, asking Montp for more information. I also thought loans were ok up to 9th December 2010 when they changed the law (prospectively).

Yep also got one... Welcome to Loan Club

as usual sent off to montp to deal with.

* had a long chat with montp yesterday, and if it helps calm you down they are more than prepared for dealing with bad boy Hector which was very assuring

** BTW, it would appear that the dec 9 proposed legislation does not actually cover the current arrangement which specifically targets Employee Ben trusts etc

[Tax_shouldnt_be_taxing]

A19

Did a quick search on A19:



I see the main problem that the person deciding would be a HMRC officer, but can anyone see any reason why I shouldn't give it a try?

Well there's 2 rather good reasons for why you would be right "to hold the belief" that your tax affairs were in order:

The CIOT suggest they were (p.8):
http://www.tax.org.uk/Resources/CIOT...OT%20Nov10.pdf

The then Secretary-General of the OECD Donald Johnson:
"Tax evasion is easy: it involves breaking the law. By tax avoidance OECD means unacceptable avoidance ... This can be contrasted with acceptable tax planning. What is critical is transparency" - Donald Johnston, Secretary-General, OECD

So 2 rather influencial bodies. The CIOT find it hard to consider the HMRC position on BN66 as right and given all SA Returns were fully declared, then that meets the OECD definition.

Oh and I forgot a 3rd - Parker. He reckons there was a case for the scheme being legal.

So I think these are 3 genuine reasons to have held the belief that ones tax affairs were in order.

Oops, forgot TE63. That makes 4 reasons. 2 respected bodies on Tax, a High Court Judge and HMRC...

[Tax_shouldnt_be_taxing]

A19 versus BN66

Just to avoid doubt, there's a difference between whether BN66 retro is propotionate or in breach of A1P1 or not and whether at the time you were entitled to "hold the view" your tax affairs were in order. I doubt you could be asked to change your opinion retrospectively. And as I said, Parker did not say the scheme was illegal, TE63 reckoned the scheme could not be defeated, the OECD defines legitimate tax planning by its transparency and the CIOT are more than a little concerned. So on that basis, I'd say it's not just you who should be able to "hold the view" if the above side with that notion.

[robinhood]

Just to avoid doubt, there's a difference between whether BN66 retro is propotionate or in breach of A1P1 or not and whether at the time you were entitled to "hold the view" your tax affairs were in order. I doubt you could be asked to change your opinion retrospectively. And as I said, Parker did not say the scheme was illegal, TE63 reckoned the scheme could not be defeated, the OECD defines legitimate tax planning by its transparency and the CIOT are more than a little concerned. So on that basis, I'd say it's not just you who should be able to "hold the view" if the above side with that notion.

Excellent summary thanks !

To be honest I've never been too hopeful on defeating HMRC on the HR angle, rather its on the specifics of how HMRC have handled our SA's over this 7 year period, that is where I think they are on dodgy ground. Isn't the option still open to us of going to a Tax Tribunal where these issues could be more directly addressed or is that now nullified due to the current appeal process.

[TheGaffer]

Yep also got one... Welcome to Loan Club

as usual sent off to montp to deal with.

* had a long chat with montp yesterday, and if it helps calm you down they are more than prepared for dealing with bad boy Hector which was very assuring

** BTW, it would appear that the dec 9 proposed legislation does not actually cover the current arrangement which specifically targets Employee Ben trusts etc

I received the letter regarding the loan on my 2008-2009 tax return last September (was thinking of taking the option of not including the loan on my return but didn't want to be accused of hiding anything to add to my BN66 worries). Sent it to MontP immediately.

Hector wanted a reply within 30 days but MontP didn't reply for two months - I think the delay was because this was one of the first letters and their tax people had to get the wording of the response sorted out (oh and because they are busy of course), so I wouldn't expect other responses to take as long.

The reply was sent to Hector in November anyway and I've yet to hear anything from him regarding that since, which was a surprise as my local Hector is very "efficient" - I was expecting my normal Xmas greeting from him ("I don't care, pay up now") but if he sent anything he probably took advantage of the poor weather in December to ensure that his second class brown envelope got lost in the post and he could then get heavy handed (unless it was a closure of investigation with no extra tax to pay letter, ha ha!) - good job I stopped opening my front door to anyone I wasn't expecting when we lost the JR last January anyway...

I left MontP a year ago but since I used the loan scheme until the end of 2009 I fully expect the same letter from Hector shortly after my 2009-2010 tax return is submitted (even though it will get the same response from MontP).

[twinkle]

[QUOTE=RockTheBoat;1265399]Yep also got one... Welcome to Loan Club

as usual sent off to montp to deal with.

* had a long chat with montp yesterday, and if it helps calm you down they are more than prepared for dealing with bad boy Hector which was very assuring

** BTW, it would appear that the dec 9 proposed legislation does not actually cover the current arrangement which specifically targets Employee Ben trusts etc[/Yes I got a nice letter on this subject just before Christmas too, sent to Montp