Originally posted by drivemenuts
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You could add a poll to this board to keep it local if you so wished. -
Let's get some advice and soon at that
<<Or, we all stand up and make mco pay the penalties (or at least part of it). If there are only 10-20 of us following this route we could afford the most expensive lawyer in Belgium and he would not have much work to prove that we were just victims of the entire confusion.
Let´s take the following facts into consideration: we were promised a legit and safe salary management solution, we have never been asked to sign a real contract for the so-called "undeclared revenue", we were not even allowed to send invoices for it, we were completely mislead by their intentions, etc, etc. Are we really the only ones in fault here? Ask your lawyer and it will become clear that our line of defense would be strong. I have already spoken to my lawyer and he confirmed that he defended a similar case - nobody paid anything !
The true story is that cnx was caught and since they have no monies they made a deal with BTA; From the ruling it is clear that they never paid PE tax and now they need to rectify it.
Average revenue they earn in Belgium is several k/year per consultant on which they need to pay 34% corporate taxes (or PE if you like).
It is up to them and not you to settle it. YOU MUST NOT PAY IT !!! You will never get any amnesty for it as BTA would not even know how to justify such a payment.
Surely, the second option will cost money and stress but it will be definitely cheaper than what oldtimerron has been paying for the last 9 years.
If you are a lucky foreigner with no Belgium roots just go home - for people like me, I don't see any other options
think about it.[/QUOTE]>>
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So how do we go about getting a top lawyer's advice?
How do we get ourselves organised and pool our resources?
REMEMBER...Our 'friends' read this post daily!Comment
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So how do we go about getting a top lawyer's advice?
How do we get ourselves organised and pool our resources?
REMEMBER...Our 'friends' read this post daily![/QUOTE]
Why don't you guys just name a pub and a time.Comment
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Survey
Thanks to all that participate.
this is the results as today.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3664/...9bede6.jpg?v=0
I was not aware that it was possible to do the survey on the forum.
So please if you want to comment..keep it in this thread.Comment
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Why don't you guys just name a pub and a time.[/QUOTE]Originally posted by Brussels Slumdog View Post
Is it that simple? (look up Hall & Oates 1981 album & title track
)
26 replies to the survey...wouldn't be bad for a 1st meeting?!Comment
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I would first propose that each of us seek an advice with your local lawyer. There is nothing more valuable that having an opinion of 10 different lawyers. Later we can consult each other to see what the odds are.Originally posted by Brussels Slumdog View Post
p.s. I would not worry about our friends reading this thread - they will not learn more about us than they already know.Comment
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My case is even more complicated. My contract was between a UK agencyOriginally posted by azertwerty View Post
and a Non-Belgian european companyLast edited by Brussels Slumdog; 17 June 2010, 12:22.Comment
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Azertwerty,Originally posted by azertwerty View Post
Do you know how to send me a direct communication as I'd be very interested to make an appointment to see your lawyer?Comment
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you need to enable it in your profile. Send me PM and I will replyOriginally posted by LetsAvItThen View PostComment
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Belgian Taxes etc and Connexions
I have watched this thread develop for sometime now and, like many of you have had dealings with the boys in Lux/Ireland.
I read a lot of comments about working in Belgium and the costs/benefits and after having been here for 10 years, initially as an independent(self employed) person and the last 4 years as a BVBA/SPRL/Ltd company I have some experience. However, I am not an expert or legal advisor so this is only my opinion.
Taxes etc
If you work in Belgium as a self employed independent, live on your own, have no costs, and earn say 600 Euros a day (average rate most of my contacts get) then, you will loose more than 50% in taxes and social security. This can be punitive at hit levels of 60% if you factor in overtime etc which drives your income into steadily higher tax bands. Clearly this is simply not worth it.
Much pain is caused by Social Security payable on your total income. As self employed all income is your personal income. Deductible costs are minimal unless you live in a large house with some space dedicated to an office, have lots of monthly bills for running your business, a car on lease perhaps etc etc. Even then you need a damn good accountant to find ways of claiming all those things as costs. It can be done but once you exceed 50K per year income into Belgium you need a better solution.
SS is the biggest problem that catches most people out. SS is calculated on your total earnings for the full year. Initially you estimate SS and pay that in advance. The SS office will then come back to you 2 years later and assess what you should have paid based on your previous tax returns. If you haven't paid enough you get a bill! Then the bad bit, the following years SS is assessed on your previous years tax declarations so even if you earnings go down you will still pay the SS based on previous years. So, if you have just had a credit crunching rate/hours cut you will not feel the benefit of the lower SS payments for another 3 years!
Splitting the income was always the way to avoid this but, all ManCo solutions were not compliant as there is no legal way to split income overseas unless you have complex companies and trust funds setup to do this and, even then, it is highly complex and expensive to maintain them and to stay one step ahead of the OECD witch hunt!
Forming your own company in Belgium is the only legal and long term approach to reduce taxes and avoid high SS but, it is not cheap. It will cost you 1500 Euros to setup company and then you must hold a recognised university degree to act as a Director! In fact this is now required to work as a freelance guy in any capacity in Belgium now. You will also need to feed the Company account with startup capital of between 6and 18K Euros. This is money you can spend so not a real issue. Just have to show you have some funds to start it off. You will also need a decent accountant (not Roland!) which, will cost you about 300 Euros a month as you won't want to tackle local tax and SS laws unless you parlez the local dialects.
Once you have a Ltd company you can then pay yourself the legal minimum salary of 36K Euros per year of which, you will pay an average 12K a year in tax and SS.
All other monies then go into your company. On these profits you pay 23% tax but, no SS. All costs then are sunk into the company and become deductible. The list is endless but in essence you can claim for, part rent as office space, utility bills, phones, cars, travel (if associated with work), meals at restaurants etc.
The problems then arise when you need to pay things that are not a company expense (UK mortgage, wife/kid payments, school fees, holidays, clothes etc etc). Your 24K nett salary does not go far and if you start plundering the company you'll get heavy tax and SS bills on this personal income. Dividends exist but, are taxed at personal rates (average 50%) albeit free of SS.
So what next. It all comes down to your centre of economic interest. If you are fully established in the UK and simply travel to Brussels to work, form a UK LTD and pay yourself a salary. Apply for LIMOSA and declare this work. If it exceeds 183 days etc in Brussels then you will have to pay tax and SS on that salary in Belgium. However your UK LTD will retain all other profits in the UK. Then perhaps pay your wife a UK salary to get more personal funds from the UK LTD. There are dozens of scenarios and only a good accountant from both the UK and Belgium can advise fully.
Of course everyone went for the local Belgian solution with Conx etc as splitting was better than operating via the UK as we paid less tax on declared income.
If however, you move your wife and kids to Belgium as I did then, your move your centre of economic interest to Belgium and everything becomes due here. This is when a Ltd structure is essential. However it is not enough to avoid taxation. You need to buy a house through the company, take out group insurance and pension plans and other financial products. Find ways of buying everything you need through the company.
Ultimately either your rate justifies being here or it doesn't. If you are making 20K a month and happy to retain about 60% then Belgium will work for you. 60% is about the most you will retain by the time you have paid all your dues and demands but, remember your company is paying half your lifestyle expenses so add this back as benefit.
Summary
In the good times you could work here, earn loads, send most away somewhere else, declare little and pay almost nothing. You can still do this but the net might be closing very rapidly.
Based in the UK and only away for work = Trade via the UK respecting LIMOSA rules and get a good accountant.
Short Term Freelance and earning loads but having bugger all costs = high taxes and SS and not worth it unless you leave within the first 12 months! A bit naughty but plenty do it.
Short term Freelance and earning average amount with good costs = OK but watch those escalating SS costs and if you are here for longer than 2 years get a company.
Earning loads and have decent costs = form a company but only if here for a couple of years or more as formation and running costs higher.
Conx
A lot has been written about these boys. In short a lot of BS is floating about and no clear facts are yet published by any official body.
What is clear is that their old way of working is finished and that they have a huge financial penalty to pay. Estimates out this at 2.5 Million Euros but, this cannot be confirmed.
There is no general ruling or official statute in law approving any 75/25 scheme.
Offering yourself up as a sacrificial lamb on some golden list effectively says "look at me I did wrong so you should come take a closer look". Don't be dumb!
This best advice my legal advisor's and contacts are giving is to wait and see. Sit tight, enter into no agreements and wait for the BTA to publish something that independent accountants and advisor's can validate and give appropriate direction to their clients based on fact!
In the meantime consider using a different method of operation for trading in Belgium.
A lot of rumours abound about whether Conx will fail, close, run for the hills etc. They might or might not, no one knows but, if I was Hugo in SA and I got asked for x millions I'd think long and hard before handing over all my savings, assuming he has any of it in liquid form!
Of course if enough contractors cough up large bags of cash and hand it over to Conx to cover their fines and costs great for them but, if you are due to pay taxes you should only pay to the taxman and not some 3rd party!!! Also remember that if you declare more income you will also get clobbered for more SS which, will have year on year impact!
If one day the taxman comes after you the same declaration rules apply. Declare previously undeclared income, pay taxes plus penalties if you can. It's not a criminal offence so if you can't pay then you leave and go work elsewhere. If you have a company you fold it. Interpol will not be on your trail!
Will the BTA go after several thousand individuals? I would not think so as this would take 10's of man years. Consider also if they drive us into the sea and or bankruptcy this will do nothing for the local market which, relies heavily on UK contractors and others to meet demand. Longer term it may have ramifications for companies seeking to work here.
Finally, remember that even in all the waffle coming from Conx their supposed ruling is only valid until 2010! Not a long way away. Then what?
It is likely there will be some direction from the BTA in the future but, until we know what be very careful who you listen to and what advice you follow. Talk to your accountants and or lawyer, relax, wait and see what happens and act accordingly.
You can always leave
Last edited by nodric; 22 April 2009, 08:26.I am not an expert, just someone who has experienced things first hand. If you need expert advice then seek out a qualified expert. My opinions are just that, my opinions. I could be wrong, and laws change, so trust nothing I say
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