BN66 - Time to fight back (Chapter 3)

[DonkeyRhubarb]

Breaking News...

This should get your weekend off to a good start.

I have just heard from a very reliable source that one of the "Big 4" is taking a case on behalf of an IT scheme promoter directly to the European Court of Human Rights. They are not bothering with a JR.

I don't know who the client is but obviously it's not MP, and last I heard De Graaf were also still going down the JR route.

You know we were also wondering what was happening with the property developers, well apparently challenges are being mounted. The reasons we haven't heard much about this are:

a) unlike us, property developers keep stuff very close to their chest to protect their commercial interests
b) tax planners rarely collaborate either, so it's unlikely any scheme promoter such as MP would have visibility of other cases until they get to court

It seems very likely that HMRC are about to face a barrage of assaults. I wish you luck Mr B because you are going to need it old chum.

===============
PS. you might think it would be better if all the interested parties got together to form a "class action" but this will never happen because of point (b) above, and actually it's probably more effective to attack the enemy on several fronts

[TAF4]

Me too BP?? Pretty please.
I have the same question based on the the same submission date as Benni'. I planned to hold fire for another week as the MP team undoubtedly got buried on their return Monday this week.
That, of course, was the mischievous intentention of HMRC. By sending out the CN's at the start of the holiday break we (MP) lost around 10 days of the 28 day appeal window.
B'tds!!

[TheGadgetMan]

This should get your weekend off to a good start.

I have just heard from a very reliable source that one of the "Big 4" is taking a case on behalf of an IT scheme promoter directly to the European Court of Human Rights. They are not bothering with a JR.

I don't know who the client is but obviously it's not MP, and last I heard De Graaf were also still going down the JR route.

You know we were also wondering what was happening with the property developers, well apparently challenges are being mounted. The reasons we haven't heard much about this are:

a) unlike us, property developers keep stuff very close to their chest to protect their commercial interests
b) tax planners rarely collaborate either, so it's unlikely any scheme promoter such as MP would have visibility of other cases until they get to court

It seems very likely that HMRC are about to face a barrage of assaults. I wish you luck Mr B because you are going to need it old chum.

===============
PS. you might think it would be better if all the interested parties got together to form a "class action" but this will never happen because of point (b) above, and actually it's probably more effective to attack the enemy on several fronts

This is fantastic news...we were sitting here a few months ago worrying what MP's next step was going to be after Royal Assent...and now it turns out that some even bigger guns are going to be firing their cannons at MrYouKnowWho ()...

couple of questions though...

how on earth do you leap-frog the JR/HoL process and go straight to the ECHR? it must take some VERY big balls to do that...and it also indicates that whichever of the Big4 is intending to do this must be very sure of there ground...

also do we have any clues about the time-scales of the ECHR hearing...?

if this is true, then I'm feeling more confident of winning than ever before...

as for MrYouKnowWho (), how well will he be sleeping at night in the coming months? will he be waking in a cold sweat at the thought of standing up in the ECHR and putting forward his pathetic arguments?

[Toocan]

I reckon that this was probably their primary motive all along and it's working. Although the scheme promoters were quick to come up with alternatives, there is no doubt that s.58 has put a lot of punters off.

This is also why they will not give up, even if they recognise their position is unwinnable. The longer they draw it out the more damage it inflicts on the tax planning industry. For them this is just one battle in the ongoing war against tax avoidance.

I don't agree - this is the nuclear option - when HMRC lose this case, that's it. They have an empty toolbox. They'd need to modify the EU human rights to change it. Is that going to happen? I doubt it.

[Toocan]

If you register with the Government Gateway, you can check whether the appeals have been lodged on-line.

https://online.hmrc.gov.uk/registration/individual

I just tried to register, when I viewed the terms and conditons (first step of registration) I got this message:

Not enough storage is available to process this command.

I think HMRC needs to hire an independant contractor to fix their website.

(I'll need an "IR35 friendly" contract Mr B)

[DonkeyRhubarb]

couple of questions though...

1) how on earth do you leap-frog the JR/HoL process and go straight to the ECHR? it must take some VERY big balls to do that...and it also indicates that whichever of the Big4 is intending to do this must be very sure of there ground...

2) also do we have any clues about the time-scales of the ECHR hearing...?

1) We are talking "Big 4" here so I'm sure they know the drill. By the way, I know which of the 4 firms it is but don't want to say on forum.

2) No, but their QC will be submitting papers shortly. I've got the name of the QC but again would prefer to keep it off forum.

[DonkeyRhubarb]

I don't agree - this is the nuclear option - when HMRC lose this case, that's it. They have an empty toolbox. They'd need to modify the EU human rights to change it. Is that going to happen? I doubt it.

You may be right but don't underestimate HMRC to come up with even more draconian measures, perhaps a general anti-avoidance rule like they already have in some other countries.

[BrilloPad]

This should get your weekend off to a good start.

I have just heard from a very reliable source that one of the "Big 4" is taking a case on behalf of an IT scheme promoter directly to the European Court of Human Rights. They are not bothering with a JR.

I don't know who the client is but obviously it's not MP, and last I heard De Graaf were also still going down the JR route.

You know we were also wondering what was happening with the property developers, well apparently challenges are being mounted. The reasons we haven't heard much about this are:

a) unlike us, property developers keep stuff very close to their chest to protect their commercial interests
b) tax planners rarely collaborate either, so it's unlikely any scheme promoter such as MP would have visibility of other cases until they get to court

It seems very likely that HMRC are about to face a barrage of assaults. I wish you luck Mr B because you are going to need it old chum.

===============
PS. you might think it would be better if all the interested parties got together to form a "class action" but this will never happen because of point (b) above, and actually it's probably more effective to attack the enemy on several fronts

that is great news

[Toocan]

You may be right but don't underestimate HMRC to come up with even more draconian measures, perhaps a general anti-avoidance rule like they already have in some other countries.

I suspect a general anti-avoidance rule is retrospecive legislation by another name. If it was that simple, they would have done it by now.

That said, they may well try.

[poppy01]

If this is for real and I've no reason to think otherwise, how will this affect our appeals. In the unlikely event the JR goes against us, surely it is legitimate to expect the process to then await the outcome of the ECHR case?

Does this give us even more time is what I'm getting at.