BN66 - Time to fight back: Continued

[DonkeyRhubarb]

If I was HMRC...

I would be seriously worried about this getting into court. Whichever way you look at it, there is simply no excuse for them not taking action sooner.

Although it is possible that Jane Kennedy lied, I am more inclined to believe that HMRC pulled the wool over the Government's eyes. Either that or treasury officials fed her a load of bull.

Unfortunately, there is nothing HMRC can do now to stop this going to court. They can't drop the matter when legislation has been passed specifically to deal with it.

I'm sure they are not looking forward to their incompetence and duplicity being exposed for all to see. If it is true that the Government have also been misled then some civil servants are really going to be in deep sh*t.

[BrilloPad]

I would be seriously worried about this getting into court. Whichever way you look at it, there is simply no excuse for them not taking action sooner.

Although it is possible that Jane Kennedy lied, I am more inclined to believe that HMRC pulled the wool over the Government's eyes. Either that or treasury officials fed her a load of bull.

Unfortunately, there is nothing HMRC can do now to stop this going to court. They can't drop the matter when legislation has been passed specifically to deal with it.

I'm sure they are not looking forward to their incompetence and duplicity being exposed for all to see. If it is true that the Government have also been misled then some civil servants are really going to be in deep sh*t.

Here is a question - after we win - can we sue? There have been a number of "mistakes" which, to me, were deliberate and harassment.

Maybe if we took all the money in the CTDs........

[ASB]

They had ample opportunity to close the loophole in successive budgets before the situation got out of hand but instead chose to take no action for 5 years.

Yours sincerely,

DR,

If you can then avoid use of the word loophole. Use of this word puts you striaght on the back foot, you are sort of of conceeding that they are right.

Perhaps something along the lines of:

There had been ample opportunity to legislate to achieve a different effect in any one of 5 sucessive budgets - however they instead chose to do nothing; either to close the enquiries or to amend the law.

[BrilloPad]

DR,

If you can then avoid use of the word loophole. Use of this word puts you striaght on the back foot, you are sort of of conceeding that they are right.

Perhaps something along the lines of:

There had been ample opportunity to legislate to achieve a different effect in any one of 5 sucessive budgets - however they instead chose to do nothing; either to close the enquiries or to amend the law.

Sorry but I think I was exploiting a loophole - and am proud. It was poorly drafted legislation. Maybe I misunderstand the word loophole?

If the government does not want loopholes they should simplify the ligislation.

There is a seperate thread on the morals of tax paying - conclusion is that it is our moral duty to minimize the amount of tax we pay - while staying within the law.

I always admitted to avoidance - but deny evasion. I am not going to pretend my s**t does not stink.

[DonkeyRhubarb]

If you can then avoid use of the word loophole. Use of this word puts you striaght on the back foot, you are sort of of conceeding that they are right.

Actually, I think it might be the other way round. If you search for "loophole" in the budget notes or in the transcripts of the finance bill debates, then the Government seem quite happy to use this term where they accept that it is a genuine deficiency in the law.

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/budget2008/master-notes.pdf

The Government were very careful not to use the word "loophole" when discussing Clause 55, and refused to accept it as such. This is why they chose the word "clarify" rather than "change" when drafting the legislation.

[DonkeyRhubarb]

Another long term Montpelier scheme user and lurker here. Thanks for all the info over the past months guys.

I have great respect for Montp, they've been true to their word over the years. My first relevant SA return was enquired into by HMRC a few months after the normal 12 month date. Montp said they'd appeal it upto the Lords, both in respect of the late opening of the enquiry and to defend the scheme. But of course HMRC didn't push it and just kept us all on tenderhooks for 5 or so years. I think it's despicable that the govt then had to change the law retrospectively rather than pursue test cases.

I have high expectations that we will eventually win, though I haven't got the cash to pay my full liability, so I've got my fingers crossed too. I spent a fair bit on private education for my kids, saving the govt money in the process, but I've now pulled them out into state schooling. I also had full private Health cover, but I've stopped that now too. Unfortunately my limited savings are in shares, so if HMRC demand their pound of flesh we'd have to sell our home. Not a position to be in at any time, never mind during a house price and stock market crash.

But it could be worse. If my job was a Tax Inspector, and I had to bankrupt families by using backdated changes to the Tax Law, then I really wouldn't be able to sleep at nights.

Tynos.

Welcome Tynos, and thanks for "de-lurking".

The Government has had the upper-hand so far, since no-one has really probed deeply into their motives for using retrospection. Jane Kennedy was able to make sweeping assertions like they only became aware of the "unprecedented scale" of the problem last year, without anyone questioning this. Maybe it is true and the Government only found out about it last year but you and I, and hundreds of others, know that HMRC have been fully aware of this for years.

This will all come out in court, where the case will be tested on hard facts and figures, not wild conjectures. HMRC will not be able to hide the true extent of their involvement since MP has a copy of every single item of correspondence they've sent out over the past 5 years, which must run into tens of thousands of letters.

Once it is established that HMRC have been fully aware of this for years, and the number of scheme users didn't suddenly shoot up in the last year, then one of the Government's main arguments for using retrospection will fall apart.

This will then be seen for what it really is, which is a blatant "tax grab".

[DonkeyRhubarb]

I wonder whose idea it was...

to use retrospection? My guess is the Government.

HMRC will have requested legislation to close the loophole but I bet it was the Government who seized on another opportunity to bash contractors, who they clearly despise.

Initially HMRC may have been delighted at the prospect of clawing back tax. They may even have expected MP to appeal but they probably assumed it would just go to their "friendly commissioners".

I bet they never bargained on this heading straight for the High Court!!!

[SantaClaus]

Welcome Tynos, and thanks for "de-lurking".

The Government has had the upper-hand so far, since no-one has really probed deeply into their motives for using retrospection. Jane Kennedy was able to make sweeping assertions like they only became aware of the "unprecedented scale" of the problem last year, without anyone questioning this. Maybe it is true and the Government only found out about it last year but you and I, and hundreds of others, know that HMRC have been fully aware of this for years.

This will all come out in court, where the case will be tested on hard facts and figures, not wild conjectures. HMRC will not be able to hide the true extent of their involvement since MP has a copy of every single item of correspondence they've sent out over the past 5 years, which must run into tens of thousands of letters.

Once it is established that HMRC have been fully aware of this for years, and the number of scheme users didn't suddenly shoot up in the last year, then one of the Government's main arguments for using retrospection will fall apart.

This will then be seen for what it really is, which is a blatant "tax grab".

[BrilloPad]

to use retrospection? My guess is the Government.

HMRC will have requested legislation to close the loophole but I bet it was the Government who seized on another opportunity to bash contractors, who they clearly despise.
Initially HMRC may have been delighted at the prospect of clawing back tax. They may even have expected MP to appeal but they probably assumed it would just go to their "friendly commissioners".

I bet they never bargained on this heading straight for the High Court!!!

http://www.contractoruk.com/news/004034.html

Ministers are about to call on the information technology industry to recalibrate the British economy as its dominant growth engine - financial services – continues to stall.

Led by Lord Carter, a former Ofcom boss, the new focus on the £52bn communications sector, whose core is IT, will set about a strategy to make Britain “fully digital.”

At its heart, the strategy will tackle the knowledge economy’s pent up issues - how to fund superfast broadband, how to foster IT skills and how to induce mass take-up of IT.

Regulators, civil servants and businesses will respond to Lord Carter on these issues in a report he will prepare, which may conclude that the measures must be enshrined in law.

Explaining the reason for the report, the government said the current financial challenges meant the digital and communications industries were now of “growing significance.”

The acknowledgement will chime with Lord Mandelson, the Business Secretary, who thinks Britain has “leant too heavily” on financial services to drive economic growth.

A briefing note seen by a Sunday paper from a meeting he had with officials on Friday adds his view that the current crisis will leave financial services “significantly smaller.”

Speaking publicly, the former EU trade commissioner said the digital industry was now “central” to getting Britain through the worst of the crisis and preparing it for the “upturn.”

Lord Carter said a similar thinking lay behind his Digital Britain report, due for publication in January, aimed at spelling out how the UK’s status as a knowledge leader can be cemented.

“The economy is going through turbulent times and particular sectors…not least the financial services sector, are going through particularly turbulent times,” he told the Financial Times.

“Therefore, let’s look at other sectors…technology, media, telecoms…something we are extremely good at, quite well positioned in and could be even better positioned.”

The bid to extend Britain’s economic scope to other sectors may spark debate among business, which often says the state has neglected investment in shoring up the private sector’s skills base.

====================================

The left hand and the right hand are just not connected.....

[SantaClaus]

http://www.contractoruk.com/news/004034.html

Ministers are about to call on the information technology industry to recalibrate the British economy as its dominant growth engine - financial services – continues to stall.

Led by Lord Carter, a former Ofcom boss, the new focus on the £52bn communications sector, whose core is IT, will set about a strategy to make Britain “fully digital.”

At its heart, the strategy will tackle the knowledge economy’s pent up issues - how to fund superfast broadband, how to foster IT skills and how to induce mass take-up of IT.

Regulators, civil servants and businesses will respond to Lord Carter on these issues in a report he will prepare, which may conclude that the measures must be enshrined in law.

Explaining the reason for the report, the government said the current financial challenges meant the digital and communications industries were now of “growing significance.”

The acknowledgement will chime with Lord Mandelson, the Business Secretary, who thinks Britain has “leant too heavily” on financial services to drive economic growth.

A briefing note seen by a Sunday paper from a meeting he had with officials on Friday adds his view that the current crisis will leave financial services “significantly smaller.”

Speaking publicly, the former EU trade commissioner said the digital industry was now “central” to getting Britain through the worst of the crisis and preparing it for the “upturn.”

Lord Carter said a similar thinking lay behind his Digital Britain report, due for publication in January, aimed at spelling out how the UK’s status as a knowledge leader can be cemented.

“The economy is going through turbulent times and particular sectors…not least the financial services sector, are going through particularly turbulent times,” he told the Financial Times.

“Therefore, let’s look at other sectors…technology, media, telecoms…something we are extremely good at, quite well positioned in and could be even better positioned.”

The bid to extend Britain’s economic scope to other sectors may spark debate among business, which often says the state has neglected investment in shoring up the private sector’s skills base.

====================================

The left hand and the right hand are just not connected.....

It's funny. I'm sure I heard this story about 10 years ago.
In fact, I seem to recall they wheel it out every time there's a recession.

The day the govt's left and right hand are connected will be the day I sprout pink wings, a snout and a big fat pink belly.