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Role Change - Potential Working Arrangements

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    #11
    How long have you been working at the end client in total?
    …Maybe we ain’t that young anymore

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      #12
      Originally posted by jamesbrown View Post
      You are mistaken about Option 1. Yes, you would be squarely caught by the TAAR in that situation. Did you really think that a self-identified SIC would be a workaround? It isn’t.

      Regarding this new contract, it all sounds a bit too hypothetical to base a decision about whether or not you want to run a company. This hypothetical contract may not materialise and it may not be outside IR35 anyway. You are clearly letting the tax tail wag the dog. If you want to pursue outside IR35 contracts, then retain your current company or, at least, retain your ability to open another one by avoiding the TAAR altogether.
      Thanks.

      To clarify regarding Option 1, I just mentioned new SIC code as a side point (which I think may be needed, due to the role change), not as a workaround.

      Main points regarding Option 1 are that this is a genuine role change (as I have clarified further in subsequent posts); when I decided to start my company closure process last year, the key commercial driver was that there was no need for the company any more (tax benefit was not the key driver); and the prospect of this new outside-IR35 contract in a new role has only come up recently, so I had no knowledge or expectation of this while deciding to close my company last year.

      Regarding the new contract, the discussions are moving at a fast pace, and it is likely to become real by next week. So yes, not really hypothetical. That's why trying to firm up the best way for operating from Apr-2022 onwards, after considering all the options.

      Comment


        #13
        Originally posted by WTFH View Post
        How long have you been working at the end client in total?
        4.5 years

        Comment


          #14
          Originally posted by Costa View Post

          4.5 years
          Well and truely inside IR35 regardless of what a contract may say.

          Heck you've even moved to a different role inside the client which screams inside IR35 more than just about anything else could...
          merely at clientco for the entertainment

          Comment


            #15
            Originally posted by eek View Post

            Well and truely inside IR35 regardless of what a contract may say.

            Heck you've even moved to a different role inside the client which screams inside IR35 more than just about anything else could...
            Totally agree. Changing roles outside your skill base is your defence but it's also a massive flag for being part and parcel of the organisation. No more outside on this client for you so you've got a answer.
            'CUK forum personality of 2011 - Winner - Yes really!!!!

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              #16
              Originally posted by eek View Post

              Well and truely inside IR35 regardless of what a contract may say.

              Heck you've even moved to a different role inside the client which screams inside IR35 more than just about anything else could...
              Thanks for your viewpoint. Client will provide an assessment and SDS for the new contract. Awaiting that.

              Options I have listed are under the assumption that Client will provide an outside-IR35 contract (which is quite likely, based on the discussions so far).
              If not, then yes, Option 3 will become the default option.

              Comment


                #17
                Originally posted by Costa View Post

                Thanks for your viewpoint. Client will provide an assessment and SDS for the new contract. Awaiting that.

                Options I have listed are under the assumption that Client will provide an outside-IR35 contract (which is quite likely, based on the discussions so far).
                The client might provide that assessment for your new role, but I suspect that should HMRC spend more than a second looking at the length of time you've worked there, then you will be deemed inside, as of about 4 years ago.
                …Maybe we ain’t that young anymore

                Comment


                  #18
                  Originally posted by WTFH View Post

                  The client might provide that assessment for your new role, but I suspect that should HMRC spend more than a second looking at the length of time you've worked there, then you will be deemed inside, as of about 4 years ago.
                  Absolutely. I would be willing to bet they will be filling it in based on you not the role in an attempt to shuffle you in with minimal impact which is another sign you are part and parcel IMO. This is an example where I think the client is failing in its duty to manage it's own risk in order to just tick boxes and move you. When HMRC ask them about their responses I'll be willing to bet the answer will be different to the tick boxes.

                  Eek will is better placed to confirm but IMO this is a situation where even though the SDS is with the client I think there is a big problem. This is the type of test case that will come IMO and it will be very interesting to see if the charge could be shifted down the chain. I believe Eek and JB have looked at this in detail and although I don't remember the answer, and we probably don't know, there is still some considerable risk.

                  So the situation is you've been on site for 4.5 years already, which sounds like it's going to extend in to many more, with a dubious IR35 determination trying to dodge an MVL. Can it get any worse?
                  'CUK forum personality of 2011 - Winner - Yes really!!!!

                  Comment


                    #19
                    My opinion would be continue to close & MVL the original company, that way at least any historical IR35 worries will be out of the way (4.5 years could be tricky to defend if investigated, given everything else you've mentioned) - then start the new role through an umbrella

                    Comment


                      #20
                      Originally posted by northernladuk View Post

                      Absolutely. I would be willing to bet they will be filling it in based on you not the role in an attempt to shuffle you in with minimal impact which is another sign you are part and parcel IMO. This is an example where I think the client is failing in its duty to manage it's own risk in order to just tick boxes and move you. When HMRC ask them about their responses I'll be willing to bet the answer will be different to the tick boxes.

                      Eek will is better placed to confirm but IMO this is a situation where even though the SDS is with the client I think there is a big problem. This is the type of test case that will come IMO and it will be very interesting to see if the charge could be shifted down the chain. I believe Eek and JB have looked at this in detail and although I don't remember the answer, and we probably don't know, there is still some considerable risk.

                      So the situation is you've been on site for 4.5 years already, which sounds like it's going to extend in to many more, with a dubious IR35 determination trying to dodge an MVL. Can it get any worse?
                      No, they are filling it based on the role, not me. (I am being moved not to help extend my contract, but just because there was a genuine requirement on the Business side)

                      IR35 review is yet to be completed. But I have been informed that once it is fully agreed and signed off as outside-IR35 by client / agency / IR35-advisors, then it will also be fully covered (including any tax liability in case of potentially losing a case) by the insurance from IR35-advisors, and there will be no claw-back clause in our contract with the agency.

                      On client's part, IR35 determination is following full rigour and process, so won't call it dubious. It is a very large organisation and I am a small fish, so they won't bend their processes for me.

                      And there is nothing about dodging an MVL here. That has not completed yet (that's why Option 2 is also open).

                      So, while client is working on the IR35 status determination, I am just trying to consider the best option for the working arrangement going forward, given the overall circumstances.

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