All IT contractors fall into IR35. They just dont know

**Sockpuppet** · 4 January 2007, 19:21

Originally posted by maxima

Is there any way to pay proper tax but not the same big as permanent - considering I am not entitled to certain permanent employment benefits - stability, long notice period, holidays pay, sick days pay, (I am sure there are number of other benefits - I read in papers that whole unions go to strike over some perm collegue was fired - although the guy never worked and is a dodgy idiot - it just how system works for perms)....

So what you are saying is that the more you earn the more employment rights you get?

Just becuase you earn minimum wage doesnt mean you can be fired any more easily than a £200k/year director.

Tax has nothing to do with employment rights. The more you get on your daily rate does.

When will people learn .... getting paid more as a contractor isnt becuase you are decreed to need a higher standard of life its becuase you can be got rid of easily.

P.S. About subject - I think almost every under-ltd contractor can be sued against IR35 and most of them very likely to lose. I read some Danny's articles and I believe he is right. The only problem - his way to get outside IR35 is not feasible for me. I barely can get 400 a day and this is my maximum and I will have to go under any conditions to get the job not to argue with random agency etc... and still I will have doubts if I can bypass IR test. And I think these tests are going to be more and more common. In year or two they will do automatic system to challenge everyone on wholesale basis.

What are you on? Looking at the PCG website a 1400 - 3 win:loss ratio doesnt look to bad to me.

Are you seriously complaining that you can only get £400 and your not guaranteed to be outside IR35? FFS. Some people dont earn that a week and they have to pay full tax on that.

Quit moaning and appreciate what you have or is your world and life really that petty.

**Back In Business** · 4 January 2007, 19:40

All IT contractors fall into IR35. They just dont know

Do you work for HMRC? Also is this some sort of propaganda drive to try and convince people who legally work outside IR35 to pack it in and pay more tax? Just wondering because if everyone was "inside" then there would be no "outside" and therefor no point in legislation describing the difference.

**cojak** · 4 January 2007, 20:05

That's ok.

How you want to work is completely up to you.

I work differently.

That's ok too.

HTH

**maxima** · 4 January 2007, 20:29

no answer on the question? or everyone who is here are the seasoned businessmen/women who manage their affairs precisely as oldfashioned barber with unsafe rasor?

P.S.stop this cr$p about being working for someone. even if I didnt name any company or service or umbrella it makes you think that I work for IR. Whats next? I work for secret communist tibet-based society of buddhas? This only tells me what I dont want be - you. You are paranoid because you are under constant pressure not to get caught. I dont want it.

I want provide my services and be FAIRLY paid. My question was - is it possible at all ?

Is it difficult to understand?

**maxima** · 4 January 2007, 20:37

Originally posted by Sockpuppet

So what you are saying is that the more you earn the more employment rights you get?

. . .

When will people learn .... getting paid more as a contractor isnt becuase you are decreed to need a higher standard of life its becuase you can be got rid of easily.

. . .

Are you seriously complaining that you can only get £400 and your not guaranteed to be outside IR35? FFS. Some people dont earn that a week and they have to pay full tax on that.

Quit moaning and appreciate what you have or is your world and life really that petty.

first of all - I said in contrary - I want to have less tax pressure to level that feature 'can be got rid of easily' and not to have more benefits. I traded my benefits and risks against high rates...

second of all - if I'd be those who earn 400 a week I would kill myself. Please refrain from socialist banners.

If you believe that all people are equal and has to earn the same (or in perspective - nothing at all as everyone will be fed by state artificially through pipe in spinal cord) then please immigrate to Cuba, Columbia or China at last.

I want answer on my question - how to get FAIRLY paid not having criminal record.

If you dont have answer please leave your 'wise' advice of what I shall to appreciate to your children if you have any. Or in return you will get my advice on where to go.

**maxima** · 4 January 2007, 20:39

Originally posted by cojak

How you want to work is completely up to you.

I work differently.

That's ok too.

HTH

I dont know what is HTH.

My message has a question rather than attempt to disregard your way of life / work.

I actually see no way for myself how to work after April 07. If someone can help me with idea or at least direction it will be greatly appreciated.

**cojak** · 4 January 2007, 21:01

But you've already stated your position in your opening title, and I'm sorry but I did find your opening post confusing with multiple fonts and lines everywhere.

If you think that Ltd isn't the way to go, you've got Umbrella companies or Managed Service or Composite companies.

Managed Service and Composite Companies say they give you more money at the end of the month but you will have to research carefully to confirm that they're not all smoke and mirrors.

Umbrella companies don't give you as much but they are on more solid ground.

IANAA* of course and I am only refering to the UK - how long have you been a resident? None of this may relate to you.

What do you expect to hear?

(*IANAA - I am not an accountant)

**Ardesco** · 4 January 2007, 21:08

Welcome to the UK maxima, I hope the flight over from India was pleasent.

You may want to try and take a few English Grammer lessons because what you have written barely makes sense and i'm sure you are closer to £400/week than £400/day.

HTH

(HTH = Happy To Help btw)

**Troll** · 4 January 2007, 21:12

Originally posted by maxima

Note: part of this message is off-topic. Please read the question in italic font if you dont like this. Please do not flood if you dont agree with my personal points of view - just ignore them.

Thank you
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Reading internet and this forum in particular I got an impression that almost any ltd using contractor can be challenged in the court against IR35. And success doesnt really depend on contract wording or anything else. Success depends on number of factors - how contractor prepared to argue the case, how comfortable he is against judge, what is judge's point of view etc, slightly backed up by some points like contract and control etc.

Making me think that IR uses given power to make as much money for labour programmes as they can. Regardless real situation.

Means - they try to collect money if they can - like threaten people by taking into a court and taking them into if IR legal adviser gives them green light. They try to collect money not because they believe you are doing wrong but because they believe they can get these money. Means - they believe every one doing wrong but not everyone can be caught.

I am working in development. I had 2 contracts. I drove 120 miles a day to make some certain things to happen. I am using umbrella service now but I understand it is done. In April I am going to be robbed.
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I have a little knowledge abt law system and never been in court. I dont want to be a self-employed. I dont want to be a permanent employee. (Otherwise I will open consultancy and doing no contracting).

Is there any way to pay proper tax but not the same big as permanent - considering I am not entitled to certain permanent employment benefits - stability, long notice period, holidays pay, sick days pay, (I am sure there are number of other benefits - I read in papers that whole unions go to strike over some perm collegue was fired - although the guy never worked and is a dodgy idiot - it just how system works for perms)....

I am prepared pay no more than 28% in my circumstances. Otherwise it is more convenient for me to go to some permanent job and have additional activity (selling some chinese electronic components on ebay or consulting time to time). where is no point to maintain high level of skills and risk with my health if difference in net income will be less than 20% considering enormous physical and mental overload, stress (not to mention unpaid holidays, and time being between contracts)

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I think it is naive question but some time I hope in miracles.

P.S. About subject - I think almost every under-ltd contractor can be sued against IR35 and most of them very likely to lose. I read some Danny's articles and I believe he is right. The only problem - his way to get outside IR35 is not feasible for me. I barely can get 400 a day and this is my maximum and I will have to go under any conditions to get the job not to argue with random agency etc... and still I will have doubts if I can bypass IR test. And I think these tests are going to be more and more common. In year or two they will do automatic system to challenge everyone on wholesale basis.

P.P.S. Yes - labours are socialists (BTW - Brown is much more leftier than Blair.). They favour unemployed/working class and negligence toward middle-middle class. Upper middle will snap their tail off if something wrong cos they generate most of money in this country. Working class and council-estates will ditch them on next voting - as they are majority in votes (and also this political mass is simple to govern - offer them sex, bread and show - and they are yours).

Middle-middle are nobody cos the dont have significant money per person and too busy making living to unite into political force and relatively small in numbers..

So lets rob them! That what they do.

The question is - how to save the lifestyle in such circumstances? I dont want to live in socialism. And I have nothing to retire yet.

Shall I live IT for poles builders and get to the building industry instead?

Some of those sentences should be taken out & shot - wasn't a command of English a pre-requisite of your permit?

All IT contractors fall into IR35. They just dont know