HMRCs new PS tool

[jamesbrown]

The emphasis on RoS is a bit worrying. PS is a difficult sector to carry out RoS with all the bureaucracy and frameworks to work through and their aversion to anything out of the ordinary. I imagine many places won't do this even if it's stipulated in the contract. I got close to getting a sub in when I left but it just wasn't worth the hassle. I got agreement to do it but it took too long so didn't bother in the end and I am sure it will be the same in many depts. HMRC must also know that many courts see it as a sham so people are going to have to be very careful.

Easy for us all to tick and say it's in the contract but if the tool requires us to go ask our clients there is going to be a massive problem if they start turning round and say no. We will know the clause is a sham and have to either hold our hands up or make a false declaration.

There is also the fact that a vast number of contractors don't know what is involved in carrying out the RoS, sourcing a bod, training up in own time etc.....

I don't think that area is going to be as straightforward as it looks.

I'm not saying there's an emphasis on RoS, only that a legitimate RoS will lead to a clean exit very quickly, because this is the first set of questions. If you don't have a RoS, a moderate lack of D&C will also lead to a clean exit soon after, but I hesitate to speculate too much about the "moderate" until I've tried some more D&C scenarios. Anyway, interesting to note that Qdos had a similar initial impression. Basically, the exact opposite of what I was expecting (there will definitely be a legitimate chance of an outside determination, definitely not 90% inside), but it all comes down to the weighting matrix, of course.

[jamesbrown]

Is it possible this is why they delayed it so long, as they realised many contractors would show as outside IR35, so best option is to scare the PS into having to make a decision before they really know the criteria...

Quite possibly, yes

As I mentioned above, it may serve a purpose in evidencing a position, but it's only relevant if the PSB and fee payer are onboard in making a facts-based assessment. It doesn't appear to be overly (or even at all) biased in favour of an inside determination, which was my expectation.

[chopper]

Based on what has been said, it seems to me that if you fail the test, that clearly puts you within employment (based on the Pimlico Plumbers ruling). So yes, full permie tax, but surely full permie benefits too.

The PP guy was clearly determined that his RoS was a sham and he was under full D&C.

[RonBW]

OK, I just tried a few test cases.

I think they're going to struggle to achieve what they want (90% caught) if the current weighting matrix is anything like the final matrix. It's not difficult to achieve an outside position. Basically, from what I can tell, if you have a legitimate RoS or a "reasonable" lack of D&C, you're going to be outside. I tried both the actual terms of some recent contracts and a few variations thereof, and they all exited very quickly with an outside position. I suspect you'd need a lack of RoS coupled with a moderate to high degree of D&C to have an inside determination. Just an initial impression though, as I only tried a few cases (back to proper work now )... but, so far, I haven't managed to generate an "inside" position

That said, I'm not sure it really matters. Are PSBs really going to use this with an open mind? Doesn't it really come down to whether the PSB actually wants a contractor or a deemed employee? In other words, they might use the tool to evidence a position, but probably not to determine one.

My gut feeling is that the current version of the decision matrix isn't the final one, even if the front end has changed enough so that it is reasonable (eg difference between substitution and sub-contracting finally ironed out).

That way when HMRC suddenly switch to the final version of the matrix, which then catches everyone, they can simply say "we trialled it with loads of people and they were all happy with the outcome, so they said that it was OK to use this" and more people end up caught.

[RonBW]

Based on what has been said, it seems to me that if you fail the test, that clearly puts you within employment (based on the Pimlico Plumbers ruling). So yes, full permie tax, but surely full permie benefits too.

The PP guy was clearly determined that his RoS was a sham and he was under full D&C.

The PP guy was ruled to be a worker, not an employee. There is an important difference.

[WordIsBond]

The emphasis on RoS is a bit worrying. PS is a difficult sector to carry out RoS with all the bureaucracy and frameworks to work through and their aversion to anything out of the ordinary. I imagine many places won't do this even if it's stipulated in the contract. I got close to getting a sub in when I left but it just wasn't worth the hassle. I got agreement to do it but it took too long so didn't bother in the end and I am sure it will be the same in many depts. HMRC must also know that many courts see it as a sham so people are going to have to be very careful.

Easy for us all to tick and say it's in the contract but if the tool requires us to go ask our clients there is going to be a massive problem if they start turning round and say no. We will know the clause is a sham and have to either hold our hands up or make a false declaration.

I think you are overlooking something important here.

The public sector body is supposed to make the determination. This tool is primarily intended for them to help them in that determination. So it isn't contractors saying, "Oh, yes, there's a RoS, of course." It's the client actually saying, "Yes, we have given this contractor the RoS."

How can it be a sham if the client is the one using the tool and saying it is there? Only if the client is lying to get an "outside" declaration. HMRC is going to have a hard time fighting that one, if a client wants it to be outside that much that they will say there is the RoS, HMRC isn't going to be able to win this case.

For those who aren't contracting in the public sector, presumably they can still use the tool, but as you say, their answers will be open to challenge. So an "outside" determination on this isn't ironclad for non-PS contractors, since we'll be doing it ourselves, but it almost certainly will be for the PS guys, whether based on RoS or not.

[m0n1k3r]

Any bets on when it will be released?

Im betting on April. Even though it would have been sensible to release such a tool months ago they wont care how long it takes.

It will be released on the 1st of April. It'll be a joke.

They apparently did release it in beta recently with the aim of going live shortly thereafter, but had to rethink when the application couldn't cope with more than 25 simultaneous users.

[eek]

It will be released on the 1st of April. It'll be a joke.

They apparently did release it in beta recently with the aim of going live shortly thereafter, but had to rethink when the application couldn't cope with more than 25 simultaneous users.

old news - and it always sounded like a server configuration issue. Beta is currently live, its expected to be available to the general public on Thursday.

[BigRed]

I think true RoS in reality is very rare. Ironically it is probably easiest to prove where there is very strong D&C, such as 1st line support who are basically bums on seats following scripted responses.

I personally was always directionless and uncontrollable in my permie days

[psychocandy]

We're hearing HMRC are stating it'll be released on Thursday (this week).

Hasnt the date changed about 15 times though already???