HMRCs new PS tool

[psychocandy]

Oh, and the link seems to be working now; time to do some checking...

Got link?

[psychocandy]

The emphasis on RoS is a bit worrying. PS is a difficult sector to carry out RoS with all the bureaucracy and frameworks to work through and their aversion to anything out of the ordinary. I imagine many places won't do this even if it's stipulated in the contract. I got close to getting a sub in when I left but it just wasn't worth the hassle. I got agreement to do it but it took too long so didn't bother in the end and I am sure it will be the same in many depts. HMRC must also know that many courts see it as a sham so people are going to have to be very careful.

Easy for us all to tick and say it's in the contract but if the tool requires us to go ask our clients there is going to be a massive problem if they start turning round and say no. We will know the clause is a sham and have to either hold our hands up or make a false declaration.

There is also the fact that a vast number of contractors don't know what is involved in carrying out the RoS, sourcing a bod, training up in own time etc.....

I don't think that area is going to be as straightforward as it looks.

I agree with NLUK. Im betting theres thousands working in PS with a RoS clause in the contract.

I know if I ever mentioned it client would be like WTF!!! It would be a complete nightmare to arrange even if they did agree.

[jamesbrown]

Got link?

I can't share it, unfortunately, as it's a personal link, and they explicitly asked that it isn't shared. It won't be long though...

[psychocandy]

My understanding from an FCSA talk last week is that if you use the tool (presumably the "final" one not a beta test one) and get an outside IR35 response, it's binding on HMRC. Ie you print it, sign and date it, and as long as you can evidence that you didn't lie on any of the questions (I guess that's where subjectivity comes in, especially on whether a RoS clause could ever be used in practice) then HMRC can't challenge it.

Is it possible this is why they delayed it so long, as they realised many contractors would show as outside IR35, so best option is to scare the PS into having to make a decision before they really know the criteria...

So what happened to the idea that PS end client decides but use of the tool is optional?

[psychocandy]

old news - and it always sounded like a server configuration issue. Beta is currently live, its expected to be available to the general public on Thursday.

One thursday in April lol.

I still can't believe someone senior at HMRC hasnt sat down, had a bit of a think and thought, "hang on now this is becoming a bit of a nightmare, we need to back this off for a bit until its sorted properly"

[MrMarkyMark]

One thursday in April lol.

I still can't believe someone senior at HMRC hasnt sat down, had a bit of a think and thought, "hang on now this is becoming a bit of a nightmare, we need to back this off for a bit until its sorted properly"

[Qdos Contractor]

Hasnt the date changed about 15 times though already???

It was meant to be 25th Feb. I'd be surprised if something isn't released this week though, as HMRC will be coming under a lot of pressure from some very large PS bodies.

[RonBW]

My understanding from an FCSA talk last week is that if you use the tool (presumably the "final" one not a beta test one) and get an outside IR35 response, it's binding on HMRC. Ie you print it, sign and date it, and as long as you can evidence that you didn't lie on any of the questions (I guess that's where subjectivity comes in, especially on whether a RoS clause could ever be used in practice) then HMRC can't challenge it.

That bit that I've put in bold hinges on HMRC having a record of exactly what the questions were at the time of asking, what the client answered, and linking that back to what HMRC have said will be an anonymous tool. I'm not convinced that HMRC have considered a mechanism for storing that information, and I'd put money on them not having a mechanism for retrieving that information at any point in the future.

[RonBW]

I still can't believe someone senior at HMRC hasnt sat down, had a bit of a think and thought, "hang on now this is becoming a bit of a nightmare, we need to back this off for a bit until its sorted properly"

They may well have done. They may well have made the point to civil servants. They may well have made the point to MPs and Ministers.

Until the Minister tells them not to continue, they have no choice but to try to implement the policy to the deadline that the Minister has dictated. That's how it works.

[Jessica@WhiteFieldTax]

The emphasis on RoS is a bit worrying.

... snip ...

There is also the fact that a vast number of contractors don't know what is involved in carrying out the RoS, sourcing a bod, training up in own time etc.....

I don't think that area is going to be as straightforward as it looks.

My testing seemed to happily generate outside answers without RoS. I don't think its that strong an emphasis.