Client "away days" an IR35 risk?

[P2P]

My public sector client has asked me to attend a staff away day but I have told them I don't think it would be appropriate for me, as a limited company contractor, to join in. The agenda for the away day includes finance, governance, their work programme for the current year, a pub lunch and "fun" sessions, whatever they are - team bonding or ice-breaking perhaps.

As a project manager I certainly have an opinion and interest in the work programme, and that's why they want me to go, but I'm concerned that this type of meeting might impact my ability to argue that I am outside IR35. I have been very careful up until now on not attending socials or appearing to be "part and parcel" of the organisation but increasingly they want me to "integrate with the team more" (their words) and would like me to attend regular team meetings too. Again, for the same reason as the away day, I'm interpreting this as a risk, and have pointed this out to them, which they have accepted. Yet for the away day I was told I have to go and the decision has been made (in other words it is not open to negotiation) - surely this implies also some sort of direction and control - another red flag?

Any advice anybody can offer or similar experiences and how you handled them? Thanks

[LondonManc]

Prexit

On the face of it, it's not good but given that they've accepted your reasoning, it may help. Is a mandatory all-day meeting to investigate the team dynamics between the resources that you are project-managing definitely inside IR35, or is there some spin that you can put on, like I just did? If you can think of an IR35-friendly wording, put that to them as the reason that you'll be attending and they acknowledge, you could well be covered.

Have you unnecessarily inflicted D&C upon yourself?

[jamesbrown]

Attend the relevant session if it's necessary for you to deliver your contractual obligations - no problem there - but don't attend the team building and other spurious crap.

[Fred Bloggs]

How long have you been there? It sounds to me like the client already regards you as part of the team rather than an outside resource. That one event in itself probably isn't an issue, but the overall situation could point to an IR35 caught scenario. Don't forget, in case law you can be outside IR35 to begin with, but over time it can shift to being inside. Might be time to either straighten things out with the client or to move on.

[P2P]

Thanks all for the prompt responses.

None of the people attending are project resources - they work on other projects or business-as-usual work so the only legitimate reason (from an IR35 perspective) I can see for me to be there is to update the group on my project... something I do anyway for those who need to know so can't see that being the main reason why they want me there. And yes, by resisting maybe I have forced their hand to almost insist I be there - good point.

I've been there about 7 months. It's the general trend where this is heading that bothers me as much as the specific away day event. They are wanting me to be part of their team (though that was never stated at interview or outset of the project). Sounds like I ought to spell out what I am there for, what I can and can't do and set boundaries, just to be clear. And it also sounds like I could attend the session on the work plan, with a spin on the wording, if that helps placate.

Thanks again for all your advice.

[northernladuk]

How long have you been there? It sounds to me like the client already regards you as part of the team rather than an outside resource. That one event in itself probably isn't an issue, but the overall situation could point to an IR35 caught scenario. Don't forget, in case law you can be outside IR35 to begin with, but over time it can shift to being inside. Might be time to either straighten things out with the client or to move on.

Could be this but my PS client has a blanket rule the contingents cannot attend away days. Some are asked by exception to cover their area specifically but there is more than enough mails and authorisation to attend to prove its by exception.

To be included as standard and no option not to attend being a contractor IMO is the start of a problem..

[psychocandy]

Think of it another way - Refusing to attend client away days is a contract risk.

Yes its not ideal and some clients just don't get it. BUT, a lot of clients want a "team" albeit made up of permies and contractors.

So what do you do? Try and get out of it like you did but this failed so you're options are put up with it or walk away from the gig.

All well and good taking the IR35 high ground but if you overdo it you won't have to worry about IR35 because you won't have a gig. I've seen fellow contracts refuse to sign H+S forms and all sorts - each times its ended badly....

[northernladuk]

I've seen fellow contracts refuse to sign H+S forms and all sorts - each times its ended badly....

So it should, especially when there is nothing wrong with signing H&S forms as we've been over many times. If someone is stupid enough not to sign H&S forms then the client has had a lucky escape.

But that said, judging by your earlier comment that it's common for clients to try to not pay the last invoice, you could just be making crap up again.

[VillageContractor]

Could be this but my PS client has a blanket rule the contingents cannot attend away days. Some are asked by exception to cover their area specifically but there is more than enough mails and authorisation to attend to prove its by exception.

To be included as standard and no option not to attend being a contractor IMO is the start of a problem..

So what if you're asked and have the option to not attend but decide to go. Not sure that makes it any clearer?

[psychocandy]

So it should, especially when there is nothing wrong with signing H&S forms as we've been over many times. If someone is stupid enough not to sign H&S forms then the client has had a lucky escape.

But that said, judging by your earlier comment that it's common for clients to try to not pay the last invoice, you could just be making crap up again.

NLUK - you're just being pedantic. You know exactly what I mean which is, IN CASES WHERE CLIENTS HAVE TRIED NOT TO PAY AN INVOICE, its not uncommon for it to be the last one.