Client "away days" an IR35 risk?

[northernladuk]

So what if you're asked and have the option to not attend but decide to go. Not sure that makes it any clearer?

Why would you do that?

[psychocandy]

So it should, especially when there is nothing wrong with signing H&S forms as we've been over many times. If someone is stupid enough not to sign H&S forms then the client has had a lucky escape.

BUT I still think we're all too hung up on these IR35 unfriendly events. You've got to weigh it up.

As I've always said, act like bertie bigbollox contractor and you won't have a contract.
Yes, OK, strictly speaking you shouldnt attend their event but if client insists then I can see no gain whatsoever in kicking off and refusing. Yes accept its a risk but take the rough with the smooth.

[jamesbrown]

Thanks all for the prompt responses.

None of the people attending are project resources - they work on other projects or business-as-usual work so the only legitimate reason (from an IR35 perspective) I can see for me to be there is to update the group on my project... something I do anyway for those who need to know so can't see that being the main reason why they want me there. And yes, by resisting maybe I have forced their hand to almost insist I be there - good point.

I've been there about 7 months. It's the general trend where this is heading that bothers me as much as the specific away day event. They are wanting me to be part of their team (though that was never stated at interview or outset of the project). Sounds like I ought to spell out what I am there for, what I can and can't do and set boundaries, just to be clear. And it also sounds like I could attend the session on the work plan, with a spin on the wording, if that helps placate.

Thanks again for all your advice.

Based on this additional description, I wouldn't attend. It is not something that should be critical for you to deliver your project-based contract. The last paragraph is concerning, and this may actually provide you with a valuable opportunity to draw a line between what you are (and are not) contracted to do. Be polite, obviously, but if they have a problem with this, it's good to know sooner rather than later.

[MrMarkyMark]

BUT I still think we're all too hung up on these IR35 unfriendly events. You've got to weigh it up.

As I've always said, act like bertie bigbollox contractor and you won't have a contract.
Yes, OK, strictly speaking you shouldnt attend their event but if client insists then I can see no gain whatsoever in kicking off and refusing. Yes accept its a risk but take the rough with the smooth.

The thing is it sets a trend. Individual occasions won't be remembered, if HMRC come knocking, general behaviour will.
Trying to separate yourself is never popular, its just something we have to do.

If the OP wants an excuse he could say he is not insured by his LTD for these kind of non work related activities.

[WTFH]

If the OP wants an excuse he could say he is not insured by his LTD for these kind of non work related activities.

It depends on how "non-work related" the activities are. It may also be possible to do the meetings bits, then make excuses and leave.

[jamesbrown]

Trying to separate yourself is never popular, its just something we have to do.

Bang on. It isn't something I've had a problem with as none of my clients really know what I do, only the outcomes, but all contractors must be aware of the need to distinguish themselves from employees. If this becomes a routine/conscious effort, it isn't a good sign.

[MrMarkyMark]

It depends on how "non-work related" the activities are. It may also be possible to do the meetings bits, then make excuses and leave.

Exactly what I was alluding to.

[Danglekt]

I have had this, dodged a few, but where it was relevant to the piece of work I was doing, I have attended.

I had a chat with the Board member running it, explained why I was doing what I was doing, then emailed them thanking them for the invite, and that I was happy to attend the event in an advisory capacity.

It's not a negotiation, make your mind up and tell them what you are going to do. If you go in wobbly they will push and you'll cave, decide before hand what your red lines are.

It's a face to face type chat to introduce the reasons though, rather than emailing.

[P2P]

I have had this, dodged a few, but where it was relevant to the piece of work I was doing, I have attended.

I had a chat with the Board member running it, explained why I was doing what I was doing, then emailed them thanking them for the invite, and that I was happy to attend the event in an advisory capacity.

It's not a negotiation, make your mind up and tell them what you are going to do. If you go in wobbly they will push and you'll cave, decide before hand what your red lines are.

It's a face to face type chat to introduce the reasons though, rather than emailing.

That's very sound advice. Thank you.

[Karbim]

What Danglekt said. And I'd add if you don't draw a clear line, you're letting things slip over time. If the client can't understand, it's probably time to move on!

IR35 or not, as a contractor you should have no desire going to staff parties... because you're not staff. Also, the next day, you don't want them to know how much a contractor can drink.

Better safe than sorry .