November 22nd - The death of contracting as we know it

[jamesbrown]

• a worker personally performs services, or is under obligation to personally perform services for the client
• the client is a public authority
• the services are provided under circumstances where, if the contract had been directly with the client, the worker would be regarded for Income Tax purposes as an employee of the client or the holder of an office with the client, or the worker actually is an office holder with the client

[SimonMac]

IPSE initial response to the Times article:

IPSE director of policy, Simon McVicker, said: "It looks like the Chancellor will be targeting hard working self-employed people for the second Budget in a row, last time it was all self-employed with NICs and now it appears he is considering a targeted attack on freelancers.

"Changes to how freelancers operate in the public sector only came in recently and they have been a complete shambles. It’s ludicrous the Chancellor would even consider extending these rules when the public-sector roll-out has been so problematic. Because of it, significant numbers have been leaving the NHS causing shortages and we’ve seen reports of serious delays to projects at TfL.

"The UK’s flexible labour market gives us a major competitive advantage over other European countries, and helps to attract investment. The government should be trying to give businesses confidence about leaving the EU not drown them in red tape. Adding additional burdens on business at this time is just plain wrong.

"If the government is serious about addressing disguised employment it should implement a statutory definition of self-employment."

But HMRC has already said that there was no impact, and Hector is an honourable man

[poorautojobber]

Feels a little like the last dance of freedom before we all get turned into permie drones doing 20 years for a cheap gold watch and an extra couple of days holiday.
I've actually just taken a new role with this in the back of my mind working for a big Co probably isn't the best place to be as this blanket nonsense seem more likely at a big Co. The main reason i went was for the cash though

[mattfx]

Surely as long as you actually aren't a disguised employee, you have nothing to worry about? An effective test for this would be milestone billing for a gig wouldn't it? I.E. If you're billing per deliverable milestone / project, as opposed to signed off timesheets you could easily demonstrate you were not in fact a regular employee. I'm sure there were other things you could do; insist on providing your own laptop (even if you have to front the cost of corporate specific A/V etc. that'd have to be worth it wouldn't it?)

I dare say im looking at it too simply though...

[mattfx]

Feels a little like the last dance of freedom before we all get turned into permie drones doing 20 years for a cheap gold watch and an extra couple of days holiday.
I've actually just taken a new role with this in the back of my mind working for a big Co probably isn't the best place to be as this blanket nonsense seem more likely at a big Co. The main reason i went was for the cash though

To be fair, my last boss did 20 years at Fyffes and got a very, very nice Rotary as recompense for his efforts. Pretty sure his salary was very toppy for out of the city, too.

[TheFaQQer]

insist on providing your own laptop (even if you have to front the cost of corporate specific A/V etc. that'd have to be worth it wouldn't it?)

IIRC, a laptop is specifically listed on CEST as something that doesn't count as providing your own equipment. A desktop, on the other hand...

[jamesbrown]

I dare say im looking at it too simply though...

Perhaps not too simply, but you may be looking in the wrong place. The change would put the liability on the fee payer. If the fee payer is happy to take the liability by providing an arrangement that is consistent with being an independent contractor, it's pretty simple (they will either complete the CEST to reflect that or use their own approach to assess the situation, but probably the latter).

Will they? A mixed picture, I expect, much like the PS, but the private sector is probably more likely to use their imagination and ensure that many contractors - at least those that are not BAU/BoS - can operate as usual. I wouldn't necessarily assume that BigCos will react negatively though. They are more likely to develop a methodology that applies company-wide, depending on the type of work, but not necessarily one that puts all work inside.

The reaction is guesswork.

[washed up contractor]

I am a regular poster but using this account as to not draw myself above the parapet but......

I have seen the new PS rules first hand and there are ways round it which make me think that it will go to the Private Sector and will work.

I have seen people move away from one man bands into micro consultancies, biding for and winning contracts for defined pieces of work, delivering a service rather than a bum on seat, and I think this could work. Many have said we should throw the BoS under the bus if it means we can continue to offer a flexible work force, and if that is the case I will do so (self preservation and all).

We have all seen contractors at clients who are so far inside they are due a gold watch and a pension, they are not freelancers, they are disguised employees.

What a miserable little twat you are. Not only are such a snivelling little tulip for not having the courage to post that under your 'usual' username (although I could take a guess at what it really is) but, you see quite happy to throw fellow contractors under the bus so you personally can escape the extra tax burden.

Yes, we've all see the odd one or two contractors who are inside. Ive tried to educate them on how to stay outside by having contracts professionally reviewed and not act like a permie etc. Despite that, there remains a very tiny hardcore of contractors who should be taxed as inside IR35 but that is HMRCs job and not ours.

If you've been at places that have legions of these 'so far inside' contractors, maybe you should look at yourself seeing as those clients actually engaged you at some point.

Sadly, there is always a group of people such as yourself who see themselves as better than everyone else.

[poorautojobber]

I'm happy defending my outside position but that right (and risk) will be taken away from me. If the public sector is anything to go by we will see blanket determinations to start with. I'm sure big Co will get wise but it's the time it'll take. I'm sure the Billion they think they are going to get will end up being a small percentage this just feels like the biggest threat to my way of living. I'm probably wrong and we'll figure it out.

[TheFaQQer]

I'm happy defending my outside position but that right (and risk) will be taken away from me. If the public sector is anything to go by we will see blanket determinations to start with. I'm sure big Co will get wise but it's the time it'll take. I'm sure the Billion they think they are going to get will end up being a small percentage this just feels like the biggest threat to my way of living. I'm probably wrong and we'll figure it out.

When IR35 was first suggested, the idea was that business should make the assessment and be liable. The CBI and others kicked this back because they argued that the burden on business would be too much and so the responsibility passed to the contractor.

Whether there is the same appetite to fight from all business groups is something that only time will tell.