The PS, IR35 and GCloud

[northernladuk]

You know, its entirely possible to come up with answers other than 'go use a search engine' or variations on 'you are stupid, aren't you'.

I am genuinely interested in what the special sauce is that these mythical suppliers are doing, which I've obviously in my incredibly non educated state, have utterly FAILED to see, and obviously if I don't already know right now then I've utterly wasted my life.

Every contractor I know there on a framework, is placed their by an agent who is there by virtue of the fact that a supplier has won some work, and needs a contractor to do it. In nearly every case the supplier has ZERO involvement with the contractor other than invoices and skimming their profit margin.

Now this is not what I'm saying i'm interested in doing, but just what is it that they 'get' and me and every third contractor 'doesnt'.

Every open opportunity on the outcomes and specialists site is to supply bums on seats, so what is so unique here?

How much investment have these suppliers made to get start their businesses? How much are you and your fellow contractors willing to do for nothing before you starting bringing the money in? As Eek says you need to think like a business and you just aren't there.

[nucastle]

If you are not able to competently use a search engine at this point in your career then you have serious issues.

To find out a specific cut off date for a particular framework, ahead of time, before it was ever mentioned? I bet you are a right hoot to be around.

[eek]

To find out a specific cut off date for a particular framework, ahead of time, before it was ever mentioned? I bet you are a right hoot to be around.

That was very simple. I registered for Digital Marketplace and it emailed me....

Look you attitude isn't going to help you around here. We will happily give your specific advice if and when you need it but the getting started bit is something you are going to have to do yourself.

And personally I would be doing it myself - as its likely the others will disappear just as soon as they have to do something for no immediate money....

[northernladuk]

To find out a specific cut off date for a particular framework, ahead of time, before it was ever mentioned? I bet you are a right hoot to be around.

Being aware of all the frameworks and keeping an eye on them is a suppliers job....................

[nucastle]

How much investment have these suppliers made to get start their businesses? How much are you and your fellow contractors willing to do for nothing before you starting bringing the money in? As Eek says you need to think like a business and you just aren't there.

I think you are missing my point here. This is not an 'I want to be a government supplier INNIT' question. I've worked in the PS, delivered projects to live, left over IR35, worked with many people on different frameworks all doing the same thing and collectively we are asking ourselves if we could remove the agent/supplier and start (supposedly) being masters of our own destiny in that respect. So as per the intention of the topic - just what does this entail?

Currently my suspicions that the only thing these suppliers are actually doing is being masters at tendering, bureaucracy and government wastage, and I've yet to see evidence of anyone 'thinking like a business' other than some forum echo chamber know-it-all rhetoric, and people saying 'you don't get it'.

It's a shame that while we all mourn the loss of PS contracting, we aren't collectively coming up with solutions with what we could do about it (other than complaining and berating others).

[northernladuk]

I think you are missing my point here. This is not an 'I want to be a government supplier INNIT' question. I've worked in the PS, delivered projects to live, left over IR35, worked with many people on different frameworks all doing the same thing and collectively we are asking ourselves if we could remove the agent/supplier and start (supposedly) being masters of our own destiny in that respect. So as per the intention of the topic - just what does this entail?

But that doesn't get around the legislation so what's the point?

Currently my suspicions that the only thing these suppliers are actually doing is being masters at tendering, bureaucracy and government wastage, and I've yet to see evidence of anyone 'thinking like a business' other than some forum echo chamber know-it-all rhetoric, and people saying 'you don't get it'.

Depends on which suppliers and what they are supplying under what framework. That might be true for a few but certainly not all. You need to do some more research. Sorry for the 'You don't get it' but not one thing you have said makes me think you've not look any further than sitting at your desk saying 'I have an idea'. You need to go and understand ALL the frameworks, understand the offerings, understand what the client wants, understand how you might supply it, understand what the problems are and the THEN you will be somewhere closer to a solution.

[SueEllen]

I think you are missing my point here. This is not an 'I want to be a government supplier INNIT' question. I've worked in the PS, delivered projects to live, left over IR35, worked with many people on different frameworks all doing the same thing and collectively we are asking ourselves if we could remove the agent/supplier and start (supposedly) being masters of our own destiny in that respect. So as per the intention of the topic - just what does this entail?

Currently my suspicions that the only thing these suppliers are actually doing is being masters at tendering, bureaucracy and government wastage, and I've yet to see evidence of anyone 'thinking like a business' other than some forum echo chamber know-it-all rhetoric, and people saying 'you don't get it'.

It's a shame that while we all mourn the loss of PS contracting, we aren't collectively coming up with solutions with what we could do about it (other than complaining and berating others).

Your point is a silly one.

If you actually worked as a permie in a consultancy (or even been a contractor) not just doing the grunt work, you would be aware that some of the non-paid work the consultancy does is bid work. This is for all clients regardless of whether they are public sector or private sector. The nature of the bid and the amount of work required to put together the bid depends on what industry the client is in.

This is one reason why consultancies have numerous admin and sales staff who don't seem to do much. Only when you end up helping them out do you find exactly what they do. Some consultancies are obviously less wasteful and better at it than others.

Oh and because Eek and others in the past have pointed out where some frameworks are, I've registered for them. I've not submitted a bid so far but because I know what is around I know I can if I get my act together.

[eek]

It's a shame that while we all mourn the loss of PS contracting, we aren't collectively coming up with solutions with what we could do about it (other than complaining and berating others).

Been there, tried that these changes are political to change how the public sector works and remove the tricks many are currently pulling.

As for how to fix it, you work out what is required to be a proper business and start looking at what is required to do so both in regards to time (filling in proposals / tenders) and money (say, getting and paying people who know how to do it to help you).

The old world is going, you need to work out where you want to stand in the new world and start implementing it.

Given that you've wasted 2 hours on here today talking about nowt have you registered for Digital outcomes yet?

[nucastle]

But that doesn't get around the legislation so what's the point?

Depends on which suppliers and what they are supplying under what framework. That might be true for a few but certainly not all. You need to do some more research. Sorry for the 'You don't get it' but not one thing you have said makes me think you've not look any further than sitting at your desk saying 'I have an idea'. You need to go and understand ALL the frameworks, understand the offerings, understand what the client wants, understand how you might supply it, understand what the problems are and the THEN you will be somewhere closer to a solution.

You are entirely right, but I was standing up, and not sitting at a desk, with a bunch of other contractors, wondering how this model worked.

The question arose from wondering just exactly what these local IT shops, or big suppliers were doing as it appeared they did nothing more than bid for work (supplying one or more contractors), get shortlisted based on price/skillset/etc , and then engage agencies to fill the roles. I even had a one hour chat with an agent who confirmed that this was all they were doing. The digital agency I was contracted to at the DWP had none of their own people north of Watford and this was just nothing more than free money for them.

So :

What the client wants - developers, ux, devops etc.
How you might supply it - you get agency pimps to send out mail merges
What the problems are - the client has a lack of what they need (see first point)

IR35 issues / engagement aside, I'm not seeing any change from development managers, or people with boots on the ground there, in how this set up is changing at all, or how a savvy 'think like a business' model fits in at anything other than very small scale for the well informed.

[eek]

You are entirely right, but I was standing up, and not sitting at a desk, with a bunch of other contractors, wondering how this model worked.

The question arose from wondering just exactly what these local IT shops, or big suppliers were doing as it appeared they did nothing more than bid for work (supplying one or more contractors), get shortlisted based on price/skillset/etc , and then engage agencies to fill the roles. I even had a one hour chat with an agent who confirmed that this was all they were doing. The digital agency I was contracted to at the DWP had none of their own people north of Watford and this was just nothing more than free money for them.

So :

What the client wants - developers, ux, devops etc.
How you might supply it - you get agency pimps to send out mail merges
What the problems are - the client has a lack of what they need (see first point)

IR35 issues / engagement aside, I'm not seeing any change from development managers, or people with boots on the ground there, in how this set up is changing at all, or how a savvy 'think like a business' model fits in at anything other than very small scale for the well informed.

And? Given that there is / appears to be a crack down on pulling those tricks (its explicitly included within the new questions) does it matter?

You either play the games and jump through the hoops your customers want you to pull or you don't... One way may get you a lot of work, the other won't....