Thinking outloud - getting round the new PSC rules

[northernladuk]

If the training manuals are handed over at the end and an NDA signed (as Ab Initio do with their manuals), then you could argue that the manuals are a high value deliverable. Granted, it would have to be an exceptional case, but eek is trying to point at exceptions here.

Agreed and was trying to shut this one down quickly. It's just another guess the same OP bungs in and leaves us all to answer which isn't helping. Unless he's charging separately for the manuals and they are a majority of the cost/deliverable it's not going to work. The quick answer without going in to how manuals fit in to training is no, it won't fulfil the criteria required.

I see what Eek is trying to do but throwing stuff in like Training manuals is hardly on the same level.

[LondonManc]

Agreed and was trying to shut this one down quickly. It's just another guess the same OP bungs in and leaves us all to answer which isn't helping. Unless he's charging separately for the manuals and they are a majority of the cost/deliverable it's not going to work. The quick answer without going in to how manuals fit in to training is no, it won't fulfil the criteria required.

If it's a £1500 per person course, the manuals would need to be worth £300 a pop. Not sure how that would work out unless they were massively comprehensive.

[eek]

If the training manuals are handed over at the end and an NDA signed (as Ab Initio do with their manuals), then you could argue that the manuals are a high value deliverable. Granted, it would have to be an exceptional case, but eek is trying to point at exceptions here.

I think the more interesting question is not where the training documents are delivered as part of the contract but where the contract is to deliver a training course that has already been created...

[northernladuk]

I think the more interesting question is not where the training documents are delivered as part of the contract but where the contract is to deliver a training course that has already been created...

Correct. But I don't think it's interesting. It's guesswork without the details like above that is key so a waste of time.

[northernladuk]

If it's a £1500 per person course, the manuals would need to be worth £300 a pop. Not sure how that would work out unless they were massively comprehensive.

As Eek points out this is a hypothetical discussion with zero details about engagement so all we can do is guess and flounder which is pointless.

[eek]

As Eek points out this is a hypothetical discussion with zero details about engagement so all we can do is guess and flounder which is pointless.

Yep... The entire point of this thread was to answer a question which was do I release something now or might it be worth using it for something slightly different down the line.

It seems that it might be worth doing the latter as it would fundamentally change what was being purchased and delivered...

The latter discussion about materials just emphasizes what the OTS stated as well today - which is that knowledge workers (trading on their years of expertise) are at a distinct disadvantage when it comes to IR35 as all the criteria continually works against our value and uniqueness...

[LondonManc]

As Eek points out this is a hypothetical discussion with zero details about engagement so all we can do is guess and flounder which is pointless.

But highly paid in the public sector

[eek]

But highly paid in the public sector

I think the question is when was the manual written.

If written while being paid by the client its worth £0, if it was written prior to that and you are providing them with material not written on their dollar surely its whatever proportion you think is justifiable...

[youngguy]

Not yet but you can see where I'm aiming for. In this case the material would be a fundamental part of the finished product, no different from the COTS product that is being customised in the first place...

I know of someone who did something similar . They tried to get on supplier frameworks (such as G cloud) and in the end they partnered with a bigger company due to the hassle. The company fronts it and they doubled their day rate. I don't exactly know the arrangement so can't say if
they are caught under the new rules but will post if I find out.

How did that work out?

It worked at the time ... They argued the case that they didn't have to do the BETs. I don't think that exact model would work this time given the consultancy example in this consultation doc.

[LondonManc]

I think the question is when was the manual written.

If written while being paid by the client its worth £0, if it was written prior to that and you are providing them with material not written on their dollar surely its whatever proportion you think is justifiable...

Correct. If it's part of your product portfolio and you present it "as-is", it's a product. If you are providing tailored materials that have a T&M cost for a specific project, then they're a product deliverable rather than a product. At least that's how I'd expect it to be.