You're probably not going to like this - we certainly don't

[malvolio]

This.
Those who took part (and IPSE did not) in the consultation on APNs back in in Q1 2014 (how times flies) know that HMRC considers such consultations merely a "look, we let them express their opinions" PR exercise. They'll push through whatever they want to push through, regardless of what you say.

IPSE aren't directly in the APN fight, as has been said several times. However, quite a view of those participants (ICAEW and E&Y for example) do work closely with IPSE and are well aware of the issues.

And it's funny that, as you quite rightly point out, most consultations are ignored then people complain loudly when IPSE and others can't get changes made. Heigh ho...

[DotasScandal]

And it's funny that, as you quite rightly point out, most consultations are ignored then people complain loudly when IPSE and others can't get changes made. Heigh ho...

These "consultations" are theatre all right (especially when the minister can pull stunts like this and no one bats an eye), but that is not to say that there are no actual levers that IPSE members can reasonably expect IPSE to action behind closed doors. When there are few results to show, members have a right to be disappointed. It's understandable.

Going back on topic, most worrying to us is that IPSE seems to be figthing last year's war here (see westtester's post above).

[youngguy]

EDITED

[Hobosapien]

“We have heard a lot of commentators saying that this is going to apply to the private sector. We can confirm there are no plans to do so.

It's definite then.

“The reality is that the private sector is a very different beast to the public sector in a lot of ways, so it doesn’t necessarily follow that something that works in the public sector will work in the private sector.”

There's all the ammo you need AIPSE to go after these morons. Contracting is a very different beast to permanent employment so doesn't necessary follow that what works in the contracting sector will work in the employment sector.

What a cluster**** this is going to be. Agencies paying deemed tax payments (in higher tax bracket just to be sure) for all PS contracts regardless of reality (just to be sure) and the contractor having to reclaim any overpaid taxes each year (good luck with that ). Only a mug will entertain PS work after this.

I'm so glad my last ever PS contract is only weeks away from ending.

[WordIsBond]

They've been told. They choose not to listen. Go figure...

Did you miss the part where I said "if they won't stop using it"?

Look, this is mind-numbingly obvious. They came up with the figure before the dividend tax increase. Since then, everyone who is allegedly dodging IR35 is paying more tax. Real money. A ten year old could understand, "Hey, those people were dodging taxes, £400 million, but Osbo increased the tax they pay, so the £400 million will be LESS now." This is not a hard concept.

The reason THEY choose not to listen is probably because they can't verify the number, so they also can't say how much it changed.

I was more interested in the "pour scorn" part of the equation. (I have some spare scorn for them if you need to borrow any.) Every time that number appears in the press or any public statement, it needs to be mocked unmercifully. "Any ten year old knows that's wrong." Any reporter who reports that number should be contacted by a reputable organisation like IPSE, and told, "These numpties can't even do maths. Want to hear about it?" Every time it appears, IPSE should contact their insider friends in government and say, "That's a lying number. These people are idiots. When are you going to do anything about them?"

Every time, it should be documented, and when there is a nice long list, go to the new Chancellor and the Self Employment Czar (or whatever they call him these days) and say, "Your government is consistently lying to the public, it has gone on long enough that we believe it is an intentional and malicious coordinated campaign, we're going to go to the press with this, and we're going to start bringing it up IN COURT on IR35 cases to show that HMRC is engaging in a dishonest, adversarial approach to IR35, and that their subjective evaluations cannot be relied upon. That's what happens if you don't fix this."

IPSE may have cozy relationships with some people, but you can't have cozy relationships with people who are lying about your issues and know they are and won't fix it. And not everyone in positions of power is willing to lie for HMRC. If IPSE isn't ready to go to war on something that is an obvious question of fact and is being used repeatedly in propaganda against contractors, why does IPSE actually exist as a lobbying organisation? Opinions are opinions, strategies are strategies, there can be multiple views on the right solution to problems, but facts are facts, and no one has the right to have their own invented facts be treated as real.

[WordIsBond]

It's definite then.

LOL. It's not even definite it will happen in the public sector, because they still don't have a working on-line tool. And come next January or February, if they still don't have it, there just might be an announcement that the public sector rollout will be delayed.

Maybe they can get it done if they bring in an outside specialist to do it. Wonder if they'll try to exercise SDC or not....

[youngguy]

Only a mug will entertain PS work after this.

Agreed, but I'd love to see all PS contractors up their rates, demand contract changes to give get out clauses etc which would resuklt in no overall change to how much Gov gets in tax.

[Forgotmylogin]

LOL. It's not even definite it will happen in the public sector, because they still don't have a working on-line tool. And come next January or February, if they still don't have it, there just might be an announcement that the public sector rollout will be delayed.

Maybe they can get it done if they bring in an outside specialist to do it. Wonder if they'll try to exercise SDC or not....

Yes, they could bring someone in. And we've all seen the HMRC example of how that person needs to ensure they stay out of SDC. All they can be told is "We need an online tool" and then the specialist can make the rest up by themselves and put it live when finished.

[Hobosapien]

LOL. It's not even definite it will happen in the public sector....

That bit was satirical. See how many times have the government said they have no plans to do something then almost immediately do it.

[Hobosapien]

Agreed, but I'd love to see all PS contractors up their rates, demand contract changes to give get out clauses etc which would resuklt in no overall change to how much Gov gets in tax.

If that was likely and feasible it would already be happening to offset the risk of the IR35 tax.

Besides it's not just the financial impact but all the hassle with the new paper trail, such as how it will impact ltd company activity and accounts if there's this pre-invoice payment being taken by the agency.