Public sector IR35 consultation launched

[northernladuk]

No because the request clearly states that the work is fixed in term and scope and will be based on pre-agreed work packages and milestones.

The work is agreed with not by the product owner...

It says it's T&M contract. I must be missing something here as I thought a contractor taken on by that supplier and working on a gov site was clearly inside.

Anyone else comment?

[eek]

It says it's T&M contract. I must be missing something here as I thought a contractor taken on by that supplier and working on a gov site was clearly inside.

Anyone else comment?

All development that isn't waterfall has to be done under time and materials as no one is going to provide a cheap quote for a fixed delivery with unknown requirements

[northernladuk]

All development that isn't waterfall has to be done under time and materials as no one is going to provide a cheap quote for a fixed delivery with unknown requirements

Indeed but will that put a contractor working for that supplier in a scope of the legislation?

[jamesbrown]

The point of the changes is to shift responsibility from the supplier to the client/agency, not to address the facts or to isolate some frameworks as being definitively outside. Regardless of the procurement framework, unless there is written agreement from the client (and a corresponding agreement from central gov't) that the contract (e.g. by extension of the framework) is outside of IR35, I can't see anyone further down the chain taking a risk. Even if they are trying to isolate the problem by framework, I don't think anyone really knows how this is going to work until it happens.

[bobspud]

Indeed but will that put a contractor working for that supplier in a scope of the legislation?

Yes it will put the sub-contractor in scope to be asked if they are applying the rules.

The Consultancy bids for that piece of work for 10 people to be at various places.

They issue contacts to the likes of you as a sub-contractor to that service. Your contract will be very outside IR35 because you know how to review the contract and get it changed to suit your working practices.

You get cracking and get on with delivering a service and the main contractor stays as far way from you as possible apart from paying you...

All is well and then eventually HMRC will ask the DWP if the rules are being adhered to, they will refer them to the Consultancy and the consultancy will say all reviewed and in line with policy nothing to see here... These are not the droids you are looking for

If HMRC want a closer look out comes the contract review and working practices and life carries on as normal while HMRC wanders off to find an easier victim...

[missinggreenfields]

All is well and then eventually HMRC will ask the DWP if the rules are being adhered to, they will refer them to the Consultancy and the consultancy will say all reviewed and in line with policy nothing to see here... These are not the droids you are looking for

Alternatively...

DWP will need to confirm that they are using PSCs (to use their term). DWP will ask the consultancy. The consultancy will ask the two initial questions that are asked to the contractors. The contractors "fail" those two questions. The consultancy / DWP (and no-one knows who) complete the HMRC online tool. The online tool confirms inside IR35. Consultancy deducts tax and NI from the invoice value and hands this over to HMRC. One year later, contractor calculates the real value of the tax and claims it back from HMRC.

[eek]

Alternatively...

DWP will need to confirm that they are using PSCs (to use their term). DWP will ask the consultancy. The consultancy will ask the two initial questions that are asked to the contractors. The contractors "fail" those two questions. The consultancy / DWP (and no-one knows who) complete the HMRC online tool. The online tool confirms inside IR35. Consultancy deducts tax and NI from the invoice value and hands this over to HMRC. One year later, contractor calculates the real value of the tax and claims it back from HMRC.

You are aware that you can't claim the NI bit back....

[bobspud]

Alternatively...

DWP will need to confirm that they are using PSCs (to use their term). DWP will ask the consultancy. The consultancy will ask the two initial questions that are asked to the contractors. The contractors "fail" those two questions. The consultancy / DWP (and no-one knows who) complete the HMRC online tool. The online tool confirms inside IR35. Consultancy deducts tax and NI from the invoice value and hands this over to HMRC. One year later, contractor calculates the real value of the tax and claims it back from HMRC.

Where is this crap coming from??

I am on a site that has been conforming to the PSC guidance for some time.

Im telling you for a fact: how they have applied the rules and how they plan to continue next year...

Yes there are most likely to be some basket cases like UKHO that do stupid things. But on the whole most of the departments want to conform and cause no additional problems at the same time. doing that means using contracts and working practices that are outside IR35 so that they can then say yes the rules are applied.

[missinggreenfields]

Where is this crap coming from??

From HMRC.

[bobspud]

From HMRC.

and how often do they get what they want once it gets to a court?