Question for programmers....

[BrilloPad]

Project Manager to Programmer must be a bit of a drop in 'pay'.

Just look at jobserve, lucky to get over 30k as permie or £8/hour as a contractor programmer these days.

Anyone saying they're on anything over 200 a day as a programmer is lying. Trust me. We don't get called code monkeys for nothing. Bottom of the food chain.

Are you the one who said we are golorified typists?

I earn ALOT more than that.....

[Ardesco]

Don't laugh, one day you too might have to eat cat food pretending it's tuna.

I don't know why, value tuna is cheaper than cat food.......

Whatever floats your boat I guess.....

[2uk]

R8 yes, Lucy nope. However I did get a rather saucy PM from her once...

SCORE!

[TheFaQQer]

Anyone saying they're on anything over 200 a day as a programmer is lying. Trust me. We don't get called code monkeys for nothing. Bottom of the food chain.

Sounds like you're either (a) not programming the right thing, or (b) not very good.

I don't know any contractor who would even consider getting out of bed for that.

[chicane]

I don't know any contractor who would even consider getting out of bed for that.

It seems like you and PAH have opinions on opposite extremes of the spectrum. I'd suggest that the reality is somewhere in between.

As with perm jobs, the rates on offer up north for any given skillset tend to vary depending on the expectations of the end client - and perhaps the cut taken by the pimp.

As a result, developer contracts around here can vary anywhere from £8/hour to £60 upwards for niche skills. From the standpoint of a seasoned contractor, it may be difficult to understand why a developer would go for a £25/hour role - but the fact is it represents a potentially good opportunity for both end client and developer.

With the benefit of hindsight, I can be pretty sure that if I'd been sufficiently gutsy to leave my poorly paid first perm job after 18 months to take up contracting, I'd have been over the moon about £25/hour and most end clients would have been more than happy with my skills and experience.

The thing many people don't grasp about the north is that those living outside the major cities can enjoy a pretty good lifestyle on a rate of £200 or salary of 35K - the rates on offer tend to reflect this.

It's not a great situation - especially when rates are pushed down by end clients getting a mentality of "oh - a web developer only costs £25/hour in the north!".

I can, however, see why PAH gets the perception of only lower rates being available - the majority of developer roles advertised on Jobserve/CWJobs etc do tend to specify £25-30ph or £225-250pd rates. For some reason, the higher paying contracts don't seem to get advertised nearly as much. It's only once you get a number of contracts under your belt and become confident at talking yourself up to pimps that these higher paying contracts become visible.

[jkoder]

@OP

The best way to find out is to try! I wouldn't look for the top 5 languages on Jobserve as suggested though. If I were you I would start with a scripting language like Python or PHP and have a play around with that, even JavaScript will give you a nice introduction and let you start programming immediately with only a browser and notepad.

You can find enough tutorials and info online to be able to get a feel for things and if you like it and have a basic grasp of what it takes you can choose a language such as Java, C++ or C# and buy a beginners book. The first 6 months are always the hardest.

Programming is one of the fastest changing parts of IT so be prepared to keep learning new API's and libraries to stay up to date. You will also be expected to learn SQL and knowledge of various databases, OS's etc It's a lot to take in and before you're at an employable level it could take some time, depending on the language you choose.

Write lots of code and make plenty of mistakes!

[PAH]

Write lots of code and make plenty of mistakes!

The biggest of which will be getting into programming!

It's only a matter of time before writing code is obsolete. Just look at what tools (such as IronSpeed) can do already. At some point the middle management won't need to mess about with Excel and Access, they'll be knocking up proper apps instead!

The future for programmers is good old systems analysis and design, or whatever bolloxy name it goes by these days. The actual coding will involve little more than installing a few libraries and running a wizard. There are even design methodologies that do the code generation already, and are bound to get better.

[PAH]

Whs

[TheFaQQer]

It seems like you and PAH have opinions on opposite extremes of the spectrum. I'd suggest that the reality is somewhere in between.

As with perm jobs, the rates on offer up north for any given skillset tend to vary depending on the expectations of the end client - and perhaps the cut taken by the pimp.

I think it's more about what you describe as a "programmer" and what is (e.g.) an "analyst programmer" or "software engineer" or "technical consultant", as has already been alluded to in this thread.

A fair bit of the work I do is programming in PL/SQL. However, a fair bit is also doing the database design, technical analysis, and possibly even the functional design as well. Does that class as a "programmer" or not?

And since I live in East Lancashire, I understand that rates can be higher in other locations. That said, my last permie job up here paid me more than working for Oracle ever did, and the contractors I was working with were on a higher daily rate than my first contract in the Thames Valley.

[chicane]

I think it's more about what you describe as a "programmer" and what is (e.g.) an "analyst programmer" or "software engineer" or "technical consultant", as has already been alluded to in this thread.

I didn't think that there were many roles left that would just expect you to read a spec and implement your assigned area of the described functionality - leaving all analysis, project management, testing etc to others.

In my ten years of commercial experience, the clients I've worked with have always expected me to get my hands dirty throughout the project lifecycle. It's often the case (again, in my experience) that the BA has done rather a sketchy job of the requirements, there's nobody to design or implement the database, the PM doesn't have a particularly strong grasp of how to manage a software project, and the test team don't understand how to test the solution. In this scenario, members of the development team are likely to be the only people on the project team with the ability to "glue" the needs of all these other people together in order to facilitate delivery.

With the above in mind, it could be suggested that the higher paid roles will tend to be flexible candidates who don't insist on pigeon-holing themselves as "just programmers", but are willing to muck in where possible to facilitate the delivery process. I'd like to think I fit into this category, and it appears that you do as well.

PAH - taking the above into account - would you consider yourself "just a programmer" or "a programmer plus a load of other useful stuff"?