Reply to: Contracting within IR35

[BolshieBastard]

Oops! Seem to have caused a bit of a stir in here

Anyway, after the day I had at work today, all offers are off the table, and I'll be out of there at the first opportunity (which is likely to be very soon).

C'mon, dish the dirty!

[cojak]

Never mind - it happens to us all.

[ThomserveBAS]

Oops! Seem to have caused a bit of a stir in here

Anyway, after the day I had at work today, all offers are off the table, and I'll be out of there at the first opportunity (which is likely to be very soon).

[LisaContractorUmbrella]

Playing devil's advocate I would say that's not necessarily so.

Definitely an IR35 target yes, but it's the working practices that finally determine IR35 status.

Also HMRC are not going to discover the ex-employer relationship until they ask to see the contract(s), which AIUI can only be done once an IR35 enquiry is instigated. With decent legal representation (e.g. PCG+) so that you won't get tripped up dealing with HMRC directly, then I think it has the potential to go either way.

Anyway I think the advice should be to stay as permie (perhaps under new contract terms) unless the OP can negotiate radically different working conditions, such as: WFH, decide your own hours, no "line manager", clearly defined deliverable(s).

Absolutely is necessarily so, I don't care what your relationship is with the devil! There is no way an integrated, permanent member of staff can transform to an outside IR35 contractor between Friday and Monday - you couldn't get a more clear cut example of deemed employment

[northernladuk]

Well yes I agree actually... it's unfair (and somewhat patronising, imho) to assume that the OP can't grasp the B2B relationship, but from the employer's POV the fact they are insisting on going via an agency says enough.

Enough for what?

[Contreras]

I concur.

Add in the fact that an employer is unlikely to change how they think of you, and the chances of defending an investigation are nil.

Well yes I agree actually... it's unfair (and somewhat patronising, imho) to assume that the OP can't grasp the B2B relationship, but from the employer's POV the fact they are insisting on going via an agency says enough.

[TheFaQQer]

I think Cojak hits the nail on the head for many reasons, one of which is never mentioned is the fact that from Friday to Monday you cannot learn how to be a business and understand the true concepts of your contract. Would that person on Monday understand his MOO and be able to supply a sub. His mentality alone should put him inside IR35 but that cannot be judged. No way does that person think and act as if he was a business and agressively defend is out of IR35 status.

Obviously many other factors but I still think she put it perfectly.

I concur.

Add in the fact that an employer is unlikely to change how they think of you, and the chances of defending an investigation are nil.

[northernladuk]

Playing devil's advocate I would say that's not necessarily so.

Definitely an IR35 target yes, but it's the working practices that finally determine IR35 status.

Also HMRC are not going to discover the ex-employer relationship until they ask to see the contract(s), which AIUI can only be done once an IR35 enquiry is instigated. With decent legal representation (e.g. PCG+) so that you won't get tripped up dealing with HMRC directly, then I think it has the potential to go either way.

Anyway I think the advice should be to stay as permie (perhaps under new contract terms) unless the OP can negotiate radically different working conditions, such as: WFH, decide your own hours, no "line manager", clearly defined deliverable(s).

I think Cojak hits the nail on the head for many reasons, one of which is never mentioned is the fact that from Friday to Monday you cannot learn how to be a business and understand the true concepts of your contract. Would that person on Monday understand his MOO and be able to supply a sub. His mentality alone should put him inside IR35 but that cannot be judged. No way does that person think and act as if he was a business and agressively defend is out of IR35 status.

Obviously many other factors but I still think she put it perfectly.

[Contreras]

Sorry, but you are deemed a 'Friday/Monday' contractor (as in Friday a permie, Monday a contractor), the very reason why IR35 was put in place.

You will definitely be inside IR35.

Playing devil's advocate I would say that's not necessarily so.

Definitely an IR35 target yes, but it's the working practices that finally determine IR35 status.

Also HMRC are not going to discover the ex-employer relationship until they ask to see the contract(s), which AIUI can only be done once an IR35 enquiry is instigated. With decent legal representation (e.g. PCG+) so that you won't get tripped up dealing with HMRC directly, then I think it has the potential to go either way.

Anyway I think the advice should be to stay as permie (perhaps under new contract terms) unless the OP can negotiate radically different working conditions, such as: WFH, decide your own hours, no "line manager", clearly defined deliverable(s).

[Wanderer]

They are in a bit of a situation now as they need me on one of the projects as I am the only person with the knowledge, and they can't recruit for that knowledge, as it's all in my head

Why don't you just ask for a big payrise and stay on as a permie. Wouldn't be a bad thing with today's contracting market being so tight.

If you want to go contracting then you've got to make a clean break of it. This Friday permie, Monday contractor gives us all a bad image.

[ThomserveBAS]

Someone else will no doubt ask how Burnley can afford to have more than one contractor.....

There's worse things to be said about Burnley in all fairness

[TheFaQQer]

Cool - thanks.

Apologies to the O/P for the uber-threadjacking

It's a CUK tradition. Someone will be along to ask you if you know how to bleed the radiators, or like gladiator movies.

Someone else will no doubt ask how Burnley can afford to have more than one contractor.....

[ThomserveBAS]

Cool - thanks.

Apologies to the O/P for the uber-threadjacking

[TheFaQQer]

So running my rate through the IR35 calculator, if operating as "inside IR35" then it is still a healthy increase over being a permie - so on a personal level, if a contractor is happy to work inside of IR35 - is there anything intrinsically wrong with that?

No. Just make sure that you cost it correctly, including your expenses, unpaid holiday and sick pay etc. Factor in your taxes correctly or you'll be in trouble.

Will working inside of IR35 attract HMRC attention in the future any more than somebody who operates entirely outside of IR35?

I don't know, but I would expect HMRC to ask what is different between the two contracts which makes you confident that you are outside IR35 on the new role.

[ThomserveBAS]

So running my rate through the IR35 calculator, if operating as "inside IR35" then it is still a healthy increase over being a permie - so on a personal level, if a contractor is happy to work inside of IR35 - is there anything intrinsically wrong with that? Will working inside of IR35 attract HMRC attention in the future any more than somebody who operates entirely outside of IR35?