Reply to: Darwin

[LisaContractorUmbrella]

Of course they will - if the scheme promoters have no risk of liability they've got nothing to lose have they

[eek]

There is a liability for promoters https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...dance_v1_0.pdf but it seems quite a long winded process and I am not sure how effective it will be

Sadly, Unless HMRC get the ability to make the directors of such schemes personally jointly liable for all debts they will continue to appear.

[LisaContractorUmbrella]

This is going to send dreadfully naive, but is there nothing illegal about what these companies do? It just seems bonkers than they can con people into using these schemes without any comeback. Especially given upcoming legislation which effectively means that any existing scheme will fall foul of GAAR and therefore be liable for APNs and FNs at some point in the future.

It's truly depressing.

There is a liability for promoters https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...dance_v1_0.pdf but it seems quite a long winded process and I am not sure how effective it will be

[jbryce]

I'm just sad now.

Trouble is - it's not difficult to convince someone of something that they want to believe. We have people calling us every single day asking how they can 'maximise their income' - we explain the risks, refer them here and to the BN66 thread and it makes no difference at all. We just end up saying type 90% take home into Google and pick one but don't come crying to us when it all goes hideously wrong

This is going to send dreadfully naive, but is there nothing illegal about what these companies do? It just seems bonkers than they can con people into using these schemes without any comeback. Especially given upcoming legislation which effectively means that any existing scheme will fall foul of GAAR and therefore be liable for APNs and FNs at some point in the future.

It's truly depressing.

[LisaContractorUmbrella]

If people believe they work then they are of course welcome to take the risk. But, I don't think they pass even the vaguest of sanity checks. Even as little as 2 minutes of due diligence would surely put anything with more intelligence than a single celled organism off.

Certainly 10 or so years ago they had some plausibility, and there could be a reasonable risk/reward ratio at the time.

But now?

Trouble is - it's not difficult to convince someone of something that they want to believe. We have people calling us every single day asking how they can 'maximise their income' - we explain the risks, refer them here and to the BN66 thread and it makes no difference at all. We just end up saying type 90% take home into Google and pick one but don't come crying to us when it all goes hideously wrong

[ASB]

I think there comes a point in time when you can't make excuses for people who continue to join these schemes.

Ignorance as a mitigation only goes so far.

If people believe they work then they are of course welcome to take the risk. But, I don't think they pass even the vaguest of sanity checks. Even as little as 2 minutes of due diligence would surely put anything with more intelligence than a single celled organism off.

Certainly 10 or so years ago they had some plausibility, and there could be a reasonable risk/reward ratio at the time.

But now?

[DonkeyRhubarb]

I think there comes a point in time when you can't make excuses for people who continue to join these schemes.

Ignorance as a mitigation only goes so far.

[eek]

Just checked with nominet and they seem to agree with me that Eddy's details should be visible as it is a domain that trades.

The address looks very familiar to people who know dodgy iom scams

[eek]

I think that's the thing - they don't know the risks - there are plenty of contractors out there that don't know about APN, HMRC crackdowns etc. - I know a fair number myself, so these schemes are still doing business as they are 'risk free' (or so they often say).

No contractor in their right mind (IMHO) would be joining these schemes if they knew the consequences, but many still don't.

Which is why you need to point people in the correct direction and why I will continue to post the likely consequences...

[dezze]

As you say Eek there will always be someone trying to find a way round the rules and they will still make money as long as contractors are prepared to take the risk

I think that's the thing - they don't know the risks - there are plenty of contractors out there that don't know about APN, HMRC crackdowns etc. - I know a fair number myself, so these schemes are still doing business as they are 'risk free' (or so they often say).

No contractor in their right mind (IMHO) would be joining these schemes if they knew the consequences, but many still don't.

[Caprichoso]

Oh yes....
People who have HMRC chasing them because they used Darwin

And this thread talking about Darwin going into liquidation

Unless they Rise Like a Phoenix, to quote Conchita...

Many thanks for your response.

[LisaContractorUmbrella]

As you say Eek there will always be someone trying to find a way round the rules and they will still make money as long as contractors are prepared to take the risk

[eek]

Everything that Eek says plus - if you work with an agency they won't work with Darwin because of this HM Revenue & Customs: Offshore Employment Intermediaries legislation which will allow any PAYE/NIC's debts to be transferred to the agency. Darwin have gone down the tubes and resurrected several times so if you do decide to go with them just be aware that they will time their next bankruptcy for when HMRC come a'knocking to confirm that they were merely after your money

FTFY

As an aside I think Darwin are now using England companies (probably IQ something or other) to bypass that the overseas company bit (probably fakely)..

Remember these people have spent years perfecting their techniques of scamming money off unwary contractors.... While we can see some of the tricks they are using there are doubtlessly more we can't see.

[LisaContractorUmbrella]

Everything that Eek says plus - if you work with an agency they won't work with Darwin because of this HM Revenue & Customs: Offshore Employment Intermediaries legislation which will allow any PAYE/NIC's debts to be transferred to the agency. Darwin have gone down the tubes and resurrected several times so if you do decide to go with them just be aware that they certainly won't be there to fight your corner when HMRC come a'knocking which they most assuredly will

[eek]

Oh yes....
People who have HMRC chasing them because they used Darwin

And this thread talking about Darwin going into liquidation

Unless they Rise Like a Phoenix, to quote Conchita...

They arose again last Friday and spammed various people including me (to my mobile not even an email but they had that as well)...

So I will add their current details to screw up their google search results:

Today's phoenix company is currently Darwin Marketing Limited. 2a Lord Street, Douglas, Isle of Man IM99 1HP
Company number: 008800V. VAT registration number: GB 003 7686 81.

The trading company is IQ something or other but the website is still Darwinpay (Darwinpay.co.uk) registered to an Eddy Mercx (but not for much longer by the time my conversation with NIC.uk has finished)...

And refer anyone visiting here to threads such as http://forums.contractoruk.com/accou...elievable.html and if that wasn't enough to put you off pick anything in HMRC Scheme Enquiries or http://forums.contractoruk.com/accou...er-trusts.html

Finally, if the description of their current scheme is as described in http://forums.contractoruk.com/accou...elievable.html joining them will not just result in a very large HMRC bill (with automatic fines) in a year or two but could permanently screw up your pension...