Reply to: Huge difference in take-home pay between umbrella PAYE and agency PAYE

[ComplianceLady]

Definitely an error and as someone who is constantly working to correct and prevent said error's it's more common than it should be for agencies that don't 'do' PAYE as bread & butter. I wrote something about it here IR35: Engagement types There's an image in it which is useful to explain rates - sorry don't know how to include it here.

And if they know ANYTHING they won't deduct NI. They'll terminate your contract and offer you a new one.

[eek]

Your net pay will be 52-54% of the gross daily rate (you will get more for the 1st few months as will more than likely be wrong tax code)


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Not if the agency has screwed up the PAYE Key information document which is sounds like they have...

[eek]

The daily rate is the same for both, but the take-home pay figure is substantially more for agency PAYE, because the agency doesn't deduct Employer's NI, apprenticeship levy and an admin fee, whereas the umbrellas do.

So take the agency payroll option and be prepared to see rather less money when your payslips arrive. But don't tell the agency anything until towards the end of the contract and then kick off a tribunal claim.

[GhostofTarbera]

Your net pay will be 52-54% of the gross daily rate (you will get more for the 1st few months as will more than likely be wrong tax code)


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[mjcp]

Sounds like a balls up by the agency - take their PAYE and then refer to the contract if its less on arrival!

My last gig was an agency PAYE FTC. The advertised day rate was ~£110 less once the contract arrived for signature; this being the various deductions for the "employer costs".

As others have stated, the only difference should be the Umbrella fee (only other things that might have an impact: holiday pay if they pay it out rather than accrue it and pensions, agency might auto enroll you, brolly might assume opt-out)

M

[NFH]

Do you mean substantially more?

Yes. I've corrected that error. Thanks.

[Amanensia]

The daily rate is the same for both, but the take-home pay figure is substantially less for agency PAYE, because the agency doesn't deduct Employer's NI, apprenticeship levy and an admin fee, whereas the umbrellas do.

Do you mean substantially more?

[lucyclarityumbrella]

The daily rate is the same for both, but the take-home pay figure is substantially less for agency PAYE, because the agency doesn't deduct Employer's NI, apprenticeship levy and an admin fee, whereas the umbrellas do.

I think I know who the agency is - drop me a message if you can and I can talk you through it.
If you want of course

[eek]

If they really are quoting the same rate then jump at it, but I will bet that when you look further into it the rates are different.

Agency PAYE - should quote taxable salary (ie only subject to Employees NI and PAYE tax)
Umbrella - should be the invoice value (less to ERsNI, Levy and Margin) to reach that taxable salary (then subject to EEsNI and PAYE)

It's almost like someone or other should formally define these things and provide a one stop shop for these documents so agencies don't screw up when asked for them

[NFH]

Because the rates should be different - the umbrella rate would be subject to Employment Costs and the PAYE rate should not be as this would already have been taken and allocated by the agency - hence the rate for the umbrella should be higher. Best way to solve it is to ask what the taxable salary is for both.

The daily rate is the same for both, but the take-home pay figure is substantially more for agency PAYE, because the agency doesn't deduct Employer's NI, apprenticeship levy and an admin fee, whereas the umbrellas do.

[lucyclarityumbrella]

For the same daily rate, the take-home pay figure in the agency's illustration is substantially more than the take-home pay figure in the umbrella's take-home pay figure.

If they really are quoting the same rate then jump at it, but I will bet that when you look further into it the rates are different.

Agency PAYE - should quote taxable salary (ie only subject to Employees NI and PAYE tax)
Umbrella - should be the invoice value (less to ERsNI, Levy and Margin) to reach that taxable salary (then subject to EEsNI and PAYE)

[NFH]

If the "three hefty deductions" are the Umbrella's fee, Employer's NI and the apprenticeship levy, you'll be paying the second and third one either way.

No, I won't according to the contract.

If the agency thinks they've got a way of avoiding paying ERNI, I'd stay well away from them...

It's a large reputable agency. They don't claim to have a way of avoiding Employer's NI, and perhaps it is their error. Given that they push everyone to umbrellas (from which they probably get commission), it wouldn't surprise me if there are so few contractors using the agency's PAYE that their procedures for agency PAYE are probably less developed and more error-prone.

[lucyclarityumbrella]

Why would anyone choose an umbrella company and suffer three hefty deductions, causing such a large reduction in take-home pay, instead of using agency PAYE? Am I missing something? Why is there a difference in which party funds the employer's NI cost between umbrella company PAYE and agency PAYE? Should I consider any other options?

Because the rates should be different - the umbrella rate would be subject to Employment Costs and the PAYE rate should not be as this would already have been taken and allocated by the agency - hence the rate for the umbrella should be higher. Best way to solve it is to ask what the taxable salary is for both.

[NFH]

All you are showing me here is that once again an agency has completely and utterly failed to explain to you how the world actually works and promised you a rate without explanation that makes you think the umbrella is doing something wrong (hint the umbrella isn't, but your agency has screwed up the explanation).

The contract doesn't state that they will deduct Employer's NI. Maybe I should just sign it, and then it will be contractually binding. Furthermore, the agency's illustration agrees with the contract that the agency will not deduct Employer's NI. For the same daily rate, the take-home pay figure in the agency's illustration is substantially more than the take-home pay figure in the umbrella's take-home pay figure.

However, if you have decent documentation that doesn't explain how agency PAYE works and a key information (or other written document such as an email) that shows that you would receive the £500 as I describe it above via the agency PAYE take them up on the offer but don't expect to be paid it. However you should be able to recover it when you finish the contract by taking them to an Employment Tribunal for illegal deductions.

Yes, my solicitor advised that, if the agency does deduct Employer's NI, then I should challenge them in writing when it happens, leave it for a while and then claim via an Employment Tribunal within three months of the final deficient payment.

[Amanensia]

If the "three hefty deductions" are the Umbrella's fee, Employer's NI and the apprenticeship levy, you'll be paying the second and third one either way. If the agency thinks they've got a way of avoiding paying ERNI, I'd stay well away from them...

The Umbrella fee won't be huge. If there's really a huge difference in take-home between agency PAYE and Umbrella PAYE, and both are legitimate, it can only because they aren't comparing apples with apples (different assumptions over numbers of days worked perhaps?) or that the total amount being paid by the client under the two scenarios is different.