Reply to: Can I claim redundancy when Umbrella enters liquidation? Other ways to recoup losses?

[Dale Lonsdale]

Did they ever get to a point of issuing a P60 for you? Or have the liquidators ever got round to issuing a P45?

No they have never issued a p45 or p60. After talking to them the company that was hosting the site with the pay slips was demanding a lot of money for the data so they couldn't get it

[lucyclarityumbrella]

Has anyone that is missing pay slips managed to get them back from either the liquidators or the actual hosting company?

Did they ever get to a point of issuing a P60 for you? Or have the liquidators ever got round to issuing a P45?

[Dale Lonsdale]

So much pain

I was caught up with Crystal and am now leaving pendragon after all these issues with tax. The first I noticed when they changed the bank on the invoices to the pendragon client account without even moving me to another company which was dodgy.

I didn't manage to download my pay slips for some period of the last tax year so I'm unable to prove what I earned and what tax was paid. After several calls with Karen on the liquidators I was able to get my tax amendment sent to HMRC but it's only been today after 3 phone calls that they have changed my tax code from a K to a L.

They still are saying I owe 8k so I am going to have to go through my statements and compare these with the HMRC portal. I did however notice that the figure they are sending to HMRC did not take away pension, expenses or student loan off the taxable income and thus causing an over payment. I am going to try and see how much this totals with the records I have and see what I can claw back.

Has anyone that is missing pay slips managed to get them back from either the liquidators or the actual hosting company?

[lucyclarityumbrella]

From what angle out of interest? Do you think they constituted an offer of an alternative position? Or from the point of view of their liabilities in this whole mess?

I had a word this afternoon with the company who are appointed by Opus to look after the employees and made it very clear that I didn't want any part of anything even remotely questionable; the lady was very clear that as an employee with uninterrupted service there shouldn't be any question of entitlement to redundancy and there probably isn't any other route to reasonable recovery of moneys owed (I'm out a week's wages at the moment) as "there isn't any money"!.

If there are any director links between the two companies it would potential highlight a Phoenixing of the business and I have a feeling this falls under TAAR which if this is the case will not please HMRC...

[bobof]

They may be interested to see those requests for you to sign up with another employer! It also sucks as any short term contractors who were employed will probably be left without any case for statutory redundancy

From what angle out of interest? Do you think they constituted an offer of an alternative position? Or from the point of view of their liabilities in this whole mess?

I had a word this afternoon with the company who are appointed by Opus to look after the employees and made it very clear that I didn't want any part of anything even remotely questionable; the lady was very clear that as an employee with uninterrupted service there shouldn't be any question of entitlement to redundancy and there probably isn't any other route to reasonable recovery of moneys owed (I'm out a week's wages at the moment) as "there isn't any money"!.

[lucyclarityumbrella]

They may be interested to see those requests for you to sign up with another employer! It also sucks as any short term contractors who were employed will probably be left without any case for statutory redundancy

[bobof]

If TUPE'd you get continuous employment, if they are not doing that they would have to officially terminate your employment with the appropriate notice, they cannot simply move you to a different employer - this could be a whole can of worms opened!

Well, a letter has arrived via email today from the insolvency practitioners suggesting I should claim for redundancy from the Insolvency Service along with a reference number; so it does look like this is the route it is going. The mind boggles really. The Insolvency Practitioner have appointed someone else to deal with the employee's pay issues.

As it is I stand to have a significant excess in a redundancy on what is owed to me by Crystal if the redundancy goes through. It's not "right" though...!

[lucyclarityumbrella]

This looks a bit suspect, almost like a TUPE job by stealth... But I guess with TUPE your redundancy rights go back to day 1 of the original employment?

If TUPE'd you get continuous employment, if they are not doing that they would have to officially terminate your employment with the appropriate notice, they cannot simply move you to a different employer - this could be a whole can of worms opened!

[bobof]

If they move you by TUPE, there is probably no case for redundancy, if you refuse TUPE then your rights are very limited. So I guess it all falls under how they do this...
The other thing is - if there is any chance of redundancy then have you had continuos employment, so have you been kept on their books whilst you are not on assignment, or have they issued you a P45 and then you have returned? If it is the latter again there would be no substantial time for the redundancy to build up. If they kept you on the books, then you would have been open to Pay Between Assignments which they probably didn't pay - so you could then go after the liquidators for that I am guessing?

There's not been any mention of being moved by TUPE - I don't think Pendragon would want the liability that brings with it... They've been asking folk to get in touch with Pendragon and sign a new Pendragon contract, which as far as I understand is distinctly not TUPE.

I have been on a continuous assignment for a ...long... time. No P45 ever issued.

It looks like everyone's PAYE references changed silently without us knowing about it in August this year when HMRC show us being paid by Unitum Operations instead of Aqua Bubble. This looks a bit suspect, almost like a TUPE job by stealth... But I guess with TUPE your redundancy rights go back to day 1 of the original employment?

[lucyclarityumbrella]

If they move you by TUPE, there is probably no case for redundancy, if you refuse TUPE then your rights are very limited. So I guess it all falls under how they do this...
The other thing is - if there is any chance of redundancy then have you had continuos employment, so have you been kept on their books whilst you are not on assignment, or have they issued you a P45 and then you have returned? If it is the latter again there would be no substantial time for the redundancy to build up. If they kept you on the books, then you would have been open to Pay Between Assignments which they probably didn't pay - so you could then go after the liquidators for that I am guessing?

[bobof]

You will be a director of your LTD so National Mimium Wage doesn't apply to you so you can pay yourself what you want. With RTI here you can pay it when you want as well but only after you've earned it.

Back to Brolly and redundancy. The only quote I can find is one paragraph in the link below. All the other insolvency umbrella links I could find were about Sunday Solutions but that's a different kettle of fish.

Your friendly rubber necker.

Thanks; it does seem like this could indeed be the one scenario where a genuine claim of redundancy could be made; the brolly is about to become insolvent with me still under it and still owed wages. In fact this scenario below sounds familiar; I know the end client have become slower at paying invoices recently (terms were supposed to be 7 days and have been running at over a month), and to their credit a few times Crystal had made silently made payroll payments including the "bonus" due (ie not just the minimum wage portion) against invoices that the end client haven't actually paid - I guess they've been doing this to keep up their end of the employment contract.

"When can contractors claim?
The only potential scenario when a contractor is likely to be able to make a claim on conventional payment protection policies would be in the event of their umbrella company going bust which can be a possibility during an economic downturn.

The reality is that some agencies go bust every week and end-user clients extend payment terms by months. This means small umbrella companies with few clients and a higher cost base are more at risk."

There is a note further on about whether a contractor would want to shake the apple cart with respect to expenses claimed; by my understanding the taxman can only go back 6 years for expenses, so this wouldn't impact me.

[northernladuk]

Thanks. I'm definitely over the threshold year to date and hadn't realised that was an option to pay no salary at all and just do dividends; haven't got that far as I don't have a P45. Didn't sound hopeful for getting one either when I talked to the Insolvency Practitioner...

You will be a director of your LTD so National Mimium Wage doesn't apply to you so you can pay yourself what you want. With RTI here you can pay it when you want as well but only after you've earned it.

Back to Brolly and redundancy. The only quote I can find is one paragraph in the link below. All the other insolvency umbrella links I could find were about Sunday Solutions but that's a different kettle of fish.

Your friendly rubber necker.

[bobof]

4 - definitely not. This is a new entity and has no bearing on what business you have with your old/ex employer.
Just a note though. Make sure your accountant factors in the tax you've already paid and what income you may get from this service when working out the most efficient salary /divis model for you. It's likely it won't be worth paying a salary from the LTD at first as you may well already be over the tax threshold.

Thanks. I'm definitely over the threshold year to date and hadn't realised that was an option to pay no salary at all and just do dividends; haven't got that far as I don't have a P45. Didn't sound hopeful for getting one either when I talked to the Insolvency Practitioner...

[northernladuk]

1 - Yes it would certainly seem so.

3 - No. You've not be TUPE'd or anything. They've just been introduced, all be it rather underhand, as a new employer to sign up with.

4 - definitely not. This is a new entity and has no bearing on what business you have with your old/ex employer.
Just a note though. Make sure your accountant factors in the tax you've already paid and what income you may get from this service when working out the most efficient salary /divis model for you. It's likely it won't be worth paying a salary from the LTD at first as you may well already be over the tax threshold.

[bobof]

Ah damn. Sorry. I didn't spot it was you.

Doh

No worries. I'm aware this probably isn't within the spirit of what the Insolvency service is about; but at the end of the day I'm sat here an employee (soon to be ex-employee, not of my own choice) of a company with wages due for work done (albeit minimum wage plus a topup bonus) and x years service; so if it is a legitimate route to me being made whole then it merits consideration. I would feel bad about cashing a cheque from the govt instead of from the brolly for about... 2 seconds.

So really the technical questions:
1) is this a situation where redundancy from the insolvency service could be claimed?
2) is there any previous case known of a brolly going under with employees who've claimed redundancy, and what was the outcome? Did the insolvency service wear the claims?
3) Would an email from the company suggesting that "unconnected co" Pendragon could take us on on the same terms and conditions (no evidence of that as yet) be enough to invalidate a claim of redundancy?
4) As a recently appointed director of a new company (as yet not raised any invoices) - would that preclude the use of the Insolvency service redundancy route?