Reply to: What do you think will happen to agencies next April?

[GB9]

Well I can trump only 16 years contracting and I still think you're being naive.

Ive worked for some blue chip FTSE companies in Finance and Utilities and they all wanted contractors but then tried to treat you as a permie. Yeah they expect you to know your stuff and work without supervision but the majority of them dont want you swanning in and leaving anytime you want to. Must be here during core time remember. Current client wants you to have 'leave' 'authorised' which wasnt how it was last time I worked there.

Hell, one Utility company the first question they asked was 'And why do you want to work for xxx utility company, Bolshie?'

Of course there are exceptions but the exceptions are the minority and things are going to get worse.

OK, i'll take the bait

I've worked for 8 FTSE 40 companies including Insurance, Retail bank and Pharma, plus a few FTSE 250. 19 clients in total.

I suppose in reality how you are treated comes down to how much you are wanted by them and also their own culture.

One client I didn't attend site for 4 weeks. They didn't care as the work got done and progress was very visible. Another client most people went home at 2 on a Friday as long as their work was complete. They were fine with that. With most clients I have worked off site as and when it suits me. I inform the client when I am going on leave. I don't ask for authorisation. If they don't like it they can get someone else.

Of course there are some clients that would like you to have been permie. I was at one in the last few years and their attitude ended up in me leaving.

What happens if the rules change I have no idea. If the only contracts available are under SDC then that's what I will have to take. But until it changes.......

[SussexSeagull]

Well I can trump only 16 years contracting and I still think you're being naive.

Ive worked for some blue chip FTSE companies in Finance and Utilities and they all wanted contractors but then tried to treat you as a permie. Yeah they expect you to know your stuff and work without supervision but the majority of them dont want you swanning in and leaving anytime you want to. Must be here during core time remember. Current client wants you to have 'leave' 'authorised' which wasnt how it was last time I worked there.

Hell, one Utility company the first question they asked was 'And why do you want to work for xxx utility company, Bolshie?'

Of course there are exceptions but the exceptions are the minority and things are going to get worse.

This is a big part of the problem. Companies want out of the box contractor skills and experience but for you to act like a FTE when it suits them.

If nothing else it increases the cost of having a contractor.

[BolshieBastard]

Speaking from 16 years contracting experience I don't think i'm naive at all.

In some cases you will be right and some clients I have worked for assume D&C and indeed they encourage their contractors to act as employees. That extends to tax affairs.

I am also well aware of contractors that stay at the same place for years and move from project to project as requested.

However, some of the big clients I have worked for have absolutely no interest in your personal tax affairs or supervising you. You are expected to come in and do a professional job without any supervision on their part. They state what they want, but how you do it is up to you.

Clients frequently want the cheaper option and have rate cards in place that ensure that is what they get. As an example, I don't know of anyone of any repute who will go to LBC as a project manager due to the rates they offer. What I am aware of is a number of PMO people who have gone to LBC as PMs as the rate is higher than they get as PMO and it gives them a start as a PM.

If end clients end up having to pay the employers NI due to D&C then they will want that off the rate card. If payroll is involved then they will see that as an opportunity to offer more fixed term contracts.

Well I can trump only 16 years contracting and I still think you're being naive.

Ive worked for some blue chip FTSE companies in Finance and Utilities and they all wanted contractors but then tried to treat you as a permie. Yeah they expect you to know your stuff and work without supervision but the majority of them dont want you swanning in and leaving anytime you want to. Must be here during core time remember. Current client wants you to have 'leave' 'authorised' which wasnt how it was last time I worked there.

Hell, one Utility company the first question they asked was 'And why do you want to work for xxx utility company, Bolshie?'

Of course there are exceptions but the exceptions are the minority and things are going to get worse.

[GB9]

Extremely naive imo. Clients want contractors then treat them like employees so they already exercise D&C to some extent. The supervision context is so broad virtually every contractor will be caught. And I dont think clients will look for the cheaper option at all.

They wont pay increased rates as they dont see our 'expenses' as their concern.

All that's going to happen is that current government contracts will start to look more appealing if they are on your doorstep.

Speaking from 16 years contracting experience I don't think i'm naive at all.

In some cases you will be right and some clients I have worked for assume D&C and indeed they encourage their contractors to act as employees. That extends to tax affairs.

I am also well aware of contractors that stay at the same place for years and move from project to project as requested.

However, some of the big clients I have worked for have absolutely no interest in your personal tax affairs or supervising you. You are expected to come in and do a professional job without any supervision on their part. They state what they want, but how you do it is up to you.

Clients frequently want the cheaper option and have rate cards in place that ensure that is what they get. As an example, I don't know of anyone of any repute who will go to LBC as a project manager due to the rates they offer. What I am aware of is a number of PMO people who have gone to LBC as PMs as the rate is higher than they get as PMO and it gives them a start as a PM.

If end clients end up having to pay the employers NI due to D&C then they will want that off the rate card. If payroll is involved then they will see that as an opportunity to offer more fixed term contracts.

[ShandyDrinker]

Bolshie - spot on. I dont think clients will care a jot.

What will happen is there will be less candidates because less will want to travel because of the costs. And the 7.5% will make the rate less in effect.

Then clients will just moan they cant get people but nothing will happen.

What I suspect will then happen is clients shouting skills shortage, government relaxing criteria for people to come to the UK, etc...

[The Spartan]

Bolshie - spot on. I dont think clients will care a jot.

What will happen is there will be less candidates because less will want to travel because of the costs. And the 7.5% will make the rate less in effect.

Then clients will just moan they cant get people but nothing will happen.

Aye clients will end up with tulip unless there are any decent contractors in the area.

[psychocandy]

Extremely naive imo. Clients want contractors then treat them like employees so they already exercise D&C to some extent. The supervision context is so broad virtually every contractor will be caught. And I dont think clients will look for the cheaper option at all.

They wont pay increased rates as they dont see our 'expenses' as their concern.

All that's going to happen is that current government contracts will start to look more appealing if they are on your doorstep.

Bolshie - spot on. I dont think clients will care a jot.

What will happen is there will be less candidates because less will want to travel because of the costs. And the 7.5% will make the rate less in effect.

Then clients will just moan they cant get people but nothing will happen.

[BolshieBastard]

I can see 6 months of absolute chaos and quite possibly few roles available until everything settles.

Some clients will want d&c, however, given the option of that or additional cost, many will go for the cheaper option. Many clients I have worked for don't want additional employees or the overhead involved in managing them. The easy way to avoid this would be no d&c.

I can also see a situation whereby clients choose d&c, end up paying employers NI and attempt to drop rates to compensate. At the same time contractors will be looking for increased rates to compensate for dividend tax. And quite a few clients will offer more fixed term contracts, the arse-end of the contract market.

I won't be able to take roles down south, and vice versa for others.

If someone doesn't get a grip then this whole shake up has the potential to be one huge ....choose your own wording....

Extremely naive imo. Clients want contractors then treat them like employees so they already exercise D&C to some extent. The supervision context is so broad virtually every contractor will be caught. And I dont think clients will look for the cheaper option at all.

They wont pay increased rates as they dont see our 'expenses' as their concern.

All that's going to happen is that current government contracts will start to look more appealing if they are on your doorstep.

[suityou01]

I can see 6 months of absolute chaos and quite possibly few roles available until everything settles.

Some clients will want d&c, however, given the option of that or additional cost, many will go for the cheaper option. Many clients I have worked for don't want additional employees or the overhead involved in managing them. The easy way to avoid this would be no d&c.

I can also see a situation whereby clients choose d&c, end up paying employers NI and attempt to drop rates to compensate. At the same time contractors will be looking for increased rates to compensate for dividend tax. And quite a few clients will offer more fixed term contracts, the arse-end of the contract market.

I won't be able to take roles down south, and vice versa for others.

If someone doesn't get a grip then this whole shake up has the potential to be one huge ....choose your own wording....

Yep. Just waiting for someone in authority to cotton on. Mexican standoff until they do. But they will.

[GB9]

You are assuming that the agency model will stay under that definition.



If you assume you first point then clients will have a choice, adapt or pay more. In my experience they will adapt. It is a symbiotic relationship between Client, Agency and Contractor.

I can see 6 months of absolute chaos and quite possibly few roles available until everything settles.

Some clients will want d&c, however, given the option of that or additional cost, many will go for the cheaper option. Many clients I have worked for don't want additional employees or the overhead involved in managing them. The easy way to avoid this would be no d&c.

I can also see a situation whereby clients choose d&c, end up paying employers NI and attempt to drop rates to compensate. At the same time contractors will be looking for increased rates to compensate for dividend tax. And quite a few clients will offer more fixed term contracts, the arse-end of the contract market.

I won't be able to take roles down south, and vice versa for others.

If someone doesn't get a grip then this whole shake up has the potential to be one huge ....choose your own wording....

[The Spartan]

Indeed but the £10 receipted for two meals needs dispensation doesn't it and I didn't think that was easy to get nowadays. Just wondering if the OP was claiming dispensation rates without it. Minor point really.

Yeah I wouldn't claim it if I didn't have receipts, I always tend to stick to receipted amounts when claiming.

[northernladuk]

Depending on where you are £10 isn't exactly a lot NLUK

Indeed but the £10 receipted for two meals needs dispensation doesn't it and I didn't think that was easy to get nowadays. Just wondering if the OP was claiming dispensation rates without it. Minor point really.

[The Spartan]

£10 a day for two meals? You've applied for dispensation?

That's a hell if day! I'd only do that carry on for the top end of my rate!!

Depending on where you are £10 isn't exactly a lot NLUK

[northernladuk]

£10 a day for two meals? You've applied for dispensation?

That's a hell if day! I'd only do that carry on for the top end of my rate!!

[Yonmons]

That makes quite horrendous reading !