Reply to: Is religion just imaginary friends for adults?

[Ticktock]

There are more wars caused by religion than by anything else. Even some nationalist wars have their roots of hate in religion.

You should perhaps attempt some historical research. Wars are most often caused by greed - religion is used for justification, to promote a sense of unity (á la Tajfel), as a catalyst, etc, but it is rarely the sole cause.

Think about the classic example - the Crusades. The rallying call amongst Europeans was more often regarding land and riches, rather than God. Religion was used to excuse their actions and justify their conquests, certainly, but most of the nobles leading the charge were interested in themselves.

[NicoleN]

There are more wars caused by religion than by anything else. Even some nationalist wars have their roots of hate in religion.

[BrilloPad]

You could help me by telling me whether you approve of your God's actions or condemn them. Do you think that it is right to force a rape victim to marry her rapist, murder rebellious children etc.

Do Christians generally approve of this or do they just try not to think too hard about it?

Are there any Christians who don't believe in this? Liberals!

[MyUserName]

I think you know the answer. I highlighted it just in case

Are you suggesting that when pressed a Christian will try to avoid answering those sort of questions?!?!

... oh wait

[Platypus]

Do Christians generally approve of this or do they just try not to think too hard about it?

I think you know the answer. I highlighted it just in case

[MyUserName]

Why don't you just get a book from the library?

Theological expoerts in book are normally not that reflective of what people actually think. They might provide arguing points for people who already believe (such as TAG) but few people start believing because of these arguments, few even really understand them in my experience. Also, there too many long words.

You are under no compulsion to accept what I tell you.

Erm ... yes some would call that obvious

I am happy that I have given answers to your questions.

Apart from the last couple, perhaps you are not sure of the answers yourself or you do not like where the chain of thought takes you?

If you're happy that your position remains valid given those answers, then that's fine with me.

My position is one of curiousity and it remains valid. Religion has not satisfied its burden of proof but I do not normally write anything off, I am always curious to learn more - I find it very hard to get my head around.

I can't really help you with your bug-bear about the extreme nature of Old Testament punishments other than suggest you find a proper book on the subject by a recognised theological expert.

You could help me by telling me whether you approve of your God's actions or condemn them. Do you think that it is right to force a rape victim to marry her rapist, murder rebellious children etc.

Do Christians generally approve of this or do they just try not to think too hard about it?

[shaunbhoy]

I find it amusing that some people struggle to try and source some scientific evidence to support the notion that there is a God.
There simply is none. The whole idea of a superior being relies almost entirely on having faith in their existence, particularly when there is no real substantive proof.
Now I am not suggesting that believing in such a being is wrong, indeed I believe it can be a very great force for good to deify such an entity and strive to follow their doctrine, as regardless of flavour they all essentially suggest we lead worthwhile and altruistic lives. That can never be a bad thing.
But while Religion can often be a positive source, it suffers from the fact that unscrupulous people can quite easily twist definitions to their own evil ends.
It seems to me to be forever destined to divide and polarise as well as to unify and bond us.

Just my 2p worth.

Anyway must dash..............Footy starts soon!!

[d000hg]

Why don't you just get a book from the library?

You are under no compulsion to accept what I tell you. I am happy that I have given answers to your questions. If you're happy that your position remains valid given those answers, then that's fine with me. I can't really help you with your bug-bear about the extreme nature of Old Testament punishments other than suggest you find a proper book on the subject by a recognised theological expert.

[MyUserName]

Aren't we going in circles? I simply state two things - that to me it seems implausible the universe isn't created, and that I believe Christianity is true.

Yes, I am wondering why you feel Christianity is any more likely to be true than any other creator.

I didn't say God would change His mind. I said praying for a direct revelation isn't going to work. You implied God would be forced to answer a prayer, He isn't.

I did not say it first, Jesus did. He repeatedly said that anything you ask for in prayer would be granted to you.

The fact Christians generally agree on the core things tells me the Bible is not that confusing. The issues that we can't decide on are therefore not the most important ones.

Modern day Christians agree on core things but that mainly stems from the popular opinions e.g. people find torture distasteful and therefore many Christians downplay the threat of eternal torture in the bible. Many Christians throughout history have understood the bible to mean quite different things to the modern day versions, they also reguarly prayed to the same God you do and he seemed to neglect to mention that they had it all wrong.

Note that the directly preceding verses say heterosexual adultery has the same punishment. This is why I accuse you of cherry-picking verses... you're claiming the bible is anti-gay but these verses simply include same-sex sex in a grocery list of sins.

Well the bible is anti-gay as it recommends the death penalty for practicing homosexuality. The fact that the list of crimes it recommends the death penalty for is as long as my arm is not really relevant as it does not change this point. It merely shows that the bigotry was not confined to homosexuality.

And you still need to read the prior books to understand why these ultra-harsh laws are being given. The bible is a complete work.

These ultra harsh laws were given because the bible was written by iron age bigots. If there was a God in control who was all knowing etc then he would be able to handle the situation witout causing death and suffering. Do not forget that God is all powerful and can do anything - therefore he could do this.

You seem to ask me about which people I want putting to death every 2nd post. You're fixated on it. Or you're deliberately using emotive questions to unbalance a proper debate... the "think of the children" strategy!

I ask about these things because I find them important. I find it horrific that people love and worship this God considering the horrific things he has done. It you believe him to be infinitely intelligent etc then logically you approve of his judgement and think that this things are just and fair. I find this truely astounding.

[d000hg]

Why would it be the Christian God rather than something else?

Aren't we going in circles? I simply state two things - that to me it seems implausible the universe isn't created, and that I believe Christianity is true.

Why would something with infinite intelligence, knowledge and wisdom throughout time and space change it's mind over something?
Also, doesn't the bible state that God is eternal and unchanging?

I didn't say God would change His mind. I said praying for a direct revelation isn't going to work. You implied God would be forced to answer a prayer, He isn't.

The fact Christians generally agree on the core things tells me the Bible is not that confusing. The issues that we can't decide on are therefore not the most important ones.

Leviticus 20:13
If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Note that no concessions are offered for any kind of mitigating circumstances.

Note that the directly preceding verses say heterosexual adultery has the same punishment. This is why I accuse you of cherry-picking verses... you're claiming the bible is anti-gay but these verses simply include same-sex sex in a grocery list of sins.

And you still need to read the prior books to understand why these ultra-harsh laws are being given. The bible is a complete work.

But do you think it is right to kill someone who lives their life differently?

You seem to ask me about which people I want putting to death every 2nd post. You're fixated on it. Or you're deliberately using emotive questions to unbalance a proper debate... the "think of the children" strategy!

[MyUserName]

I think obviously the God I believe in created the universe, but all I mean is that my knowledge of the world makes it seem less likely it was not created, as I know more, irrespective of how it was created. I don't look at the world and say "this looks like it was created by the Christian God". I look at it and think "this has to have been created" and since I'm a Christian, obviously I attribute the Christian God (or God as I call him) as that creator.

Why would it be the Christian God rather than something else?

By random I simply mean unguided. But evolution is entirely random in the sense that mutations are random, and simply the worthiness of that mutation dictates its survival leading to a change in the species.

It does not have an 'overall' plan so in that sense, I agree it is unguided.

I didn't say it was ambiguous, I said it required study to understand it rather than being able to pick a verse out of context. Regardless of divine guidance, the same book has to be relevant and accessible to Jews intimately familiar with the Torah (hence the NT requires OT understanding), gentiles 2000 years ago, modern day academics and ignorant peasants alike, and people 2000 years from now.

How do you know whether you have the correct understanding of something? If you disagreed with someone else over an interpretation when cross referencing different translations - how would you know who was right? Why on earth would such a critically important document, one which literally holds the difference between eternal paradise and eternal torture, not be written in a way that is easy for everyone to understand? Why would it have contradictions, historical errors, scientific mistakes etc?

That's not logical. That's treating God as a computer which is deterministic and testable rather than something living.

Why would something with infinite intelligence, knowledge and wisdom throughout time and space change it's mind over something?
Also, doesn't the bible state that God is eternal and unchanging?

Which verse do you refer to? I don't see that in Romans 1 or Leviticus 18.

Leviticus 20:13
If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Note that no concessions are offered for any kind of mitigating circumstances.

Either way this is only the argument I have heard, I am personally not convinced and hold the conservative traditional view that simply says sex is for marriage, and marriage is between a man and a woman. Those two axioms automatically take care of most questions.

But do you think it is right to kill someone who lives their life differently?

Until you have transgender people asking awkward questions

Now, I used to be reasonably familiar with the bible ... but that would have thrown me a theological curve ball

[d000hg]

Surely you think it is your God? Or are you worshipping a god which you think did not create the universe?

I think obviously the God I believe in created the universe, but all I mean is that my knowledge of the world makes it seem less likely it was not created, as I know more, irrespective of how it was created. I don't look at the world and say "this looks like it was created by the Christian God". I look at it and think "this has to have been created" and since I'm a Christian, obviously I attribute the Christian God (or God as I call him) as that creator.

Well science is not really random, neither are things like evolution etc. Chance has it's place but things are not completely random.

By random I simply mean unguided. But evolution is entirely random in the sense that mutations are random, and simply the worthiness of that mutation dictates its survival leading to a change in the species.

Because it was guided by a being of infinite intelligence, unlimitted power and the ability to do absolutely anything. It was meant as guide book for life, why would this guide book be written in a way which makes it ambiguous?

I didn't say it was ambiguous, I said it required study to understand it rather than being able to pick a verse out of context. Regardless of divine guidance, the same book has to be relevant and accessible to Jews intimately familiar with the Torah (hence the NT requires OT understanding), gentiles 2000 years ago, modern day academics and ignorant peasants alike, and people 2000 years from now.

Although if the bible was not simple then any theist could obtain precise and detailed clarification by praying. Logically every theist would get the same answer through time and geographic separation ... although this does not seem to happen.

That's not logical. That's treating God as a computer which is deterministic and testable rather than something living.

Maybe but the bible does not make this distinction. It simply requires the death penalty for any man who has sex with another regardless of whether they are in love, whether one is forced, whether they are drunk etc.

Which verse do you refer to? I don't see that in Romans 1 or Leviticus 18.

Either way this is only the argument I have heard, I am personally not convinced and hold the conservative traditional view that simply says sex is for marriage, and marriage is between a man and a woman. Those two axioms automatically take care of most questions. Until you have transgender people asking awkward questions

[MyUserName]

I didn't say it had to me 'my' God, I said that the more I learn of science and nature, the harder the idea it could be meaningless and random is to swallow.

Surely you think it is your God? Or are you worshipping a god which you think did not create the universe?

Well science is not really random, neither are things like evolution etc. Chance has it's place but things are not completely random.

Why would it not be meaningless?
Even if was created by a force there is nothing to say that the creation was intentional, important or even that this force was aware of it.

If you want to understand Shakespeare, you have to put a lot of study in. That's a set of silly plays written by an English man a few hundred years ago. Why would you not think a holy book written over the course of millennia in dead languages by totally different cultures would not be the same?

Because it was guided by a being of infinite intelligence, unlimitted power and the ability to do absolutely anything. It was meant as guide book for life, why would this guide book be written in a way which makes it ambiguous? Why would it be riddled with scientific errors (pigeon blood curing leprosy etc), why would there be so many contradictions and why would there be so many instructions which are simply horrific?

If the bible was simple, you wouldn't find atheists scholars devoting their professional careers to studying it.

And being as the bible is not simply it is not an atheists fault for failing to understand it and therefore thoroughly unfair that they be tortured for it.

Although if the bible was not simple then any theist could obtain precise and detailed clarification by praying. Logically every theist would get the same answer through time and geographic separation ... although this does not seem to happen.

And it's well known that gay sex is used as both a means of power/control, and a last recourse when men don't have women available.

Maybe but the bible does not make this distinction. It simply requires the death penalty for any man who has sex with another regardless of whether they are in love, whether one is forced, whether they are drunk etc.

I'll check in if I remember - I simply don't visit LR much so it drops out of my mind if the thread isn't on the first page of General

Yeah, fair point. I often forget to come here too.

[d000hg]

So you do not know how else it could have happened so it must be your God?

Although could you explain why it would have to be your God rather than some other kind of creational force which may or may not be sentient?

I didn't say it had to me 'my' God, I said that the more I learn of science and nature, the harder the idea it could be meaningless and random is to swallow.

Seems quite clear to me - if you are a practicing male homosexual then you should be murdered.


Only a handful of versus apply.


Are you sure that this is not just a case of trying to crowbar the bible into having the same morals as modern secular society? Hence the playing down of torture, oppression etc.


Normally seen not to apply by whom? Surely one quick prayer would answer these questions and everyone whp prays would have the same answer?



IMHO this 'decent understanding' just seems to be a way of selecting and twisting interpretations until you get the answer you want.

If you want to understand Shakespeare, you have to put a lot of study in. That's a set of silly plays written by an English man a few hundred years ago. Why would you not think a holy book written over the course of millennia in dead languages by totally different cultures would not be the same?

You can't understand the NT without knowing the OT - the former makes hundreds of back-references and refers to seemingly minor details which an OT scholar would notice, etc.

If the bible was simple, you wouldn't find atheists scholars devoting their professional careers to studying it.

On the Gay thing - I think it is anti-gay BUT the arguments that it is neither pro nor anti are fairly reasonable. Nowhere do I find evidence it is pro-gay but the relevant verses do not talk about homosexuality, only gay sex. And it's well known that gay sex is used as both a means of power/control, and a last recourse when men don't have women available.

I'll check in if I remember - I simply don't visit LR much so it drops out of my mind if the thread isn't on the first page of General

[BrilloPad]

Agreed. Moved to Light Relief. There you can play with yourself as much as you like. And the AndyW option was crap.

By that reason EVERY new thread should be moved to LR.

Aye in your cop out religion, all you have to do is repent and you will go to heaben to be with Jebus, innit?

Yes. Jesus even loves cretins.