Reply to: New insurance policy - will it unblock outside IR35 PSC gigs?

[inniAccounts]

We use this insurance.

Which has prompted me to have a rummage around. Turns out Hays and Qdos have been working together for some time with Qdos providing assessments and insurance on outcomes. I remember Hays recruiting (directly, not for clients) heavily for IR35 client & project managers in 2018/19 - struck me as interesting at the time.

Looking at the feedback from contractors on the website mentioned previously (warning: low sample size), Hays are leading the agent pack with contractors reporting fair assessments. If we look at gigs they've posted recently, 30% are outside IR35 and are being marketed on the fact they've been independently assessed.

In this new world we may find an increasing number of agents posting gigs outside IR35, independently assessed and determiniations insured. That's got help many contractors sleep better. The question will be, obvs, what will be the size of this new market - and if it's small with high demand will it put downward pressure on rates?

[simes]

In my experience its being done sector wide - finance, pharma, automotive - they're gambling on a lack of options for contracts plus a degree of regulatory / process rigidity that they just can't flex on.

Good. Market and capitalism forces at work.

Let's hope there are enough adverse contractor forces at work to ram home the sense.

[ComplianceLady]

We use this insurance. It helps clients who would otherwise be wary of risk accept outside IR35 working. It doesn't help for those clients that either a) have inside roles and can't change b) would've taken the 'risk' anyway and c) have made a policy decision.

Most clients that have made a policy decision believe most roles are inside and can't be changed. In my experience its being done sector wide - finance, pharma, automotive - they're gambling on a lack of options for contracts plus a degree of regulatory / process rigidity that they just can't flex on.

I've been working with the 2 insurers providing it for over a year as they develop the products, it's not new in that sense (just been finally launched) and I don't expect it to have a disruptive effect, but it is a good option to have.

[inniAccounts]

So, I would be interested in seeing what the product is, what the wording is, and how it is being communicated and presented to end clients.

I'm sure we'll find out all the details in the coming days and weeks - including policy wording. I understand the insurer in question already works many large and small agents, and they're some way along with tri-party discussions with agents and, importantly, clients. Fingers crossed.

[inniAccounts]

it was derided for lousy and second rate thinking

Surely not on this forum??!!

[simes]

Back in the day, it was exactly this sort of Insurance I was wondering if in reference to April 2020, would ever see the light of day and be made available.

Admittedly, it was a thought in progress and, to muddy the thinking, I used the words Opt Out as opposed to just Insurance in this thread. And, as a result, it was derided for lousy and second rate thinking.

https://www.contractoruk.com/forums/...ml#post2545141

However, IF this insurance is being mooted, and it does gain traction with clients, then it would seem to be a way through or round the issues and to offer clients this currently, much needed confidence to be able to declare contractors as Outside and to have access to the whole contractor pool.

So, I would be interested in seeing what the product is, what the wording is, and how it is being communicated and presented to end clients.

[inniAccounts]

Logic suggests

Therefore we have an insurance offering for companies where the engagement is deemed outside IR35 and CEST shows an outside determination?

Not just CEST.

If they (client/agent) use CEST or any other insurer approved/audited assessment tool (including those built by third parties - lots of well-known names mentioned) for the SDS and it returns an outside verdict, they will defend any claim.

If they use something else to come up with an outside verdict (unapproved tool, Bob in HR, Bob's octopus) the insurer will defend it subject to prospect of success clause.

[Manic]

Logic suggests

Therefore we have an insurance offering for companies where the engagement is deemed outside IR35 and CEST shows an outside determination?

[inniAccounts]

Remember my previous comment about your options being incorrect....

Yes I do thanks, we debated that elsewhere. We did an update early doors on the wording of the options. ATEOTD, the richest source of insight is from the long-form comments from contractors.

[krytonsheep]

Moving those contractors onto payroll, doesn't solve anything there as the contractors will still earn more (albeit less than before). I really don't think it levels the playing field out all except in the green eyed monster sense (and even then it doesn't work).

Depends on the rates, but a contractor inside IR35, without any pension/benefits/job security is definitely on a much more level playing field to a permie, compared to someone outside IR35.

[eek]

Thanks for mentioning Find fairer IR35 clients. OffPayroll.org.uk, eek - it's appreciated. It's been busy over the last 24 hours - contractors have provided IR35 insights on over 94 clients and 40 agents.

As for Zurich - two points: they're the underwriter in this chain, not the provider. And secondly, looking at that review Find fairer IR35 clients. OffPayroll.org.uk it looks like they are technically assessing IR35 fairly using CEST, but the contractor in question feels that CEST is (quite rightly) leading to unfair determinations. Which is a different topic.

Remember my previous comment about your options being incorrect....

[inniAccounts]

Thanks for mentioning Find fairer IR35 clients. OffPayroll.org.uk, eek - it's appreciated. It's been busy over the last 24 hours - contractors have provided IR35 insights on over 94 clients and 40 agents.

As for Zurich - two points: they're the underwriter in this chain, not the provider. And secondly, looking at that review Find fairer IR35 clients. OffPayroll.org.uk it looks like they are technically assessing IR35 fairly using CEST, but the contractor in question feels that CEST is (quite rightly) leading to unfair determinations. Which is a different topic.

[eek]

Are Zurich not one of the big corps blanketing?

Shall we look at inniAccounts offpayroll website?


Hmm, would you purchase a policy even the insurance company issuing it does't trust.

[eek]

The upper management at tech/ finance firms I know, have a general dislike for contractors. Part of the reason is because it demoralises the permies who are doing the same job as the permie-tractors but for less money. So from that perspective having contractors which are on PAYE/umbrella helps level the playing field for the client. That's not to say having a few specialists working outside IR35 isn't going to happen, but you can start to understand why blanket decisions are made (its not all about risk).

No - contractors scare management in those firms because if the contractors stay long term it may encourage the permanent staff to leave and go contracting.

Moving those contractors onto payroll, doesn't solve anything there as the contractors will still earn more (albeit less than before). I really don't think it levels the playing field out all except in the green eyed monster sense (and even then it doesn't work).

[Manic]

Are Zurich not one of the big corps blanketing?