Reply to: Labour pledge to halt IR35

[Hobosapien]

There's still a chance they'll halt the IR35 changes as they may well calculate, when all their other tax ideas are in the mix (such as the divi tax becoming same rate as income tax but applied after corp tax already paid, i.e. a double whammy), that operating outside IR35 via New Old Labour policies will incur more tax than operating on PAYE inside IR35.

[simes]

Bless 'em.

Doesn't really offer much faith in their actually delivering what they collectively, and more long term agree to deliver, does it.

Comes across as more of coconut-shy politics. Random chucks.

Bless 'em.

[Kanaiya]

Contractors Labour IR35 Dream Smashed - Only Offer is IR35 Review

[WordIsBond]

Venezuela is peddled out every time there is an argument against socialism. Our NHS is the direct result of socialist thinking. I doubt anyone is saying that Capitalism is evil however any idea taken to an extreme falls apart and that includes Capitalism. Just see the glorious private healthcare in the US. I would not wish that on anyone, and with Tories I am afraid we are very much headed that way.

I accept that the current Labour party leans a bit too much to the left but then again this lot of Tories are downright evil in my view. I shudder to think what a majority government of monsters like Johnson/Cummings, Raab, Gove, Patel etc will do to our country in 5 years.

Socialism doesn't have to be stupid. You can have an NHS. I'm not aware that anyone is saying you shouldn't. But there certainly are people saying capitalism is evil. Corbyn calls it "greed is good" and is declaring war on it. Their entire manifesto is absolute war on capitalism.

[WordIsBond]

Whataboutery.

Why are you comparing current poverty in the U.K. (a first-world country, number 6 economy) to Venezuela and historical Eastern basket-cases? If you’re going to make a point, at least compare apples to apples.

Is your argument that poverty in the U.K. doesn’t exist because people have a phone and a telly? And public transport to get them to the food bank? Really?

Instead of asking me to go to Venezuela and walk around, perhaps you should get out of your bubble and walk around your own country for a few weeks and ask people here whether Universal Credit is working for them.

We're a wealthy country, and have had some policies, at least, that have encouraged wealth creation. The less well off have benefited as a result, due at least in part to very high tax revenues from the wealthiest in society, also very high employment compared to historical rates, and high salaries. That's trickle-down. Duh.

No, my argument is not that poverty in the UK doesn't exist because people have a phone and a telly. Try not to be stupider than is absolutely necessary. My argument is that the poor in this country ARE benefiting from a wealthy society, such that in terms of what they actually HAVE, they are better off than most of the people in the world. People on universal credit are easily within the top 30% of the world in income. Trickle down works. Maybe not as well as it could. Maybe it's not the best way to help the poor. That's certainly a discussion worth having. But you can't have it with someone who denies it is even having an effect. The person who denies that is just a political hack.

[Nazaire99]

Sorry but I think this thread on IR35 reform is drifting off course a bit. Just sayin'.

Yeah sorry. Whether Labour get in or their competence to rule is slightly relevant to IR35.

[Nazaire99]

“Never”?

That depends only if you have a narrow definition of “left wing socialism” that suits failed states like Venezuela, Cuba, etc.

Try a broader definition of social democrats, or democratic socialists, that includes countries like Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Etc.

Interestingly, given your comparison to Hong Kong earlier, at least one commentator considers HK to be a social democrat country.

What countries have social democracy? - Quora

Nice try but the nordic countries have a free market system coupled with high levels of taxation.

Taking Sweden as an example, there are upfront fees to see a doctor. Also, there are plenty of private providers in their education system who are paid by the state for each pupil. They also have an extremely open economy.

Labour take the high tax bit, but forget the pragmatism underlying how the nordic countries run (PS. Sweden tried but abandoned a financial transaction tax and their version of Mcdonnell's "inclusive ownership funds" because they were both abject failures).

Finally don't make me laugh saying either Mcdonnell or Corbyn are Social Democrats. Mcdonnell is on record saying he is a Marxist and wants to destroy the capitalist system. BTW he was too left wing even for "red" Ken Livingstone who sacked him back in the day for covering up documents showing the GLC had plenty of money because Mcdonnell wanted to set an illegal budget.

[ContractorOnAMotorbike]

Without Winston Churchill the NHS would not exist. | The BMJ

Churchill was a Socialist then?

Compared to BoJo the clown and his mob, yes.

[SteelyDan]

“Never”?

That depends only if you have a narrow definition of “left wing socialism” that suits failed states like Venezuela, Cuba, etc.

Try a broader definition of social democrats, or democratic socialists, that includes countries like Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Etc.

Interestingly, given your comparison to Hong Kong earlier, at least one commentator considers HK to be a social democrat country.

What countries have social democracy? - Quora

Sorry but I think this thread on IR35 reform is drifting off course a bit. Just sayin'.

[meridian]

I don't hold a brief for the Conservative party, but aren't they committed to raising the minimum wage to £10.50? That means that no full time worker will earn less than 2/3rd of the median salary. Or actually that wages are now rising consistently faster than inflation? Or that more people are in jobs (particularly full time jobs) than ever before?

Are there still going to be poor people? Of course there are because there is no workable system that can take into account all peoples circumstances, particularly a change in circumstances.

There is no perfect system, but you seem to be arguing that Labour will improve the lot of the poor. But as I've said and tried to evidence, left wing populism NEVER improves the lot of the poor. It just creates a lot more poor people. That has been proved time and time again over 100 years, but every new time it is tried the people doing it claim that proper socialism was never tried before and they have the magic formula to make it work this time. It is deluded.

“Never”?

That depends only if you have a narrow definition of “left wing socialism” that suits failed states like Venezuela, Cuba, etc.

Try a broader definition of social democrats, or democratic socialists, that includes countries like Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Etc.

Interestingly, given your comparison to Hong Kong earlier, at least one commentator considers HK to be a social democrat country.

What countries have social democracy? - Quora

[JohntheBike]

Venezuela is peddled out every time there is an argument against socialism. Our NHS is the direct result of socialist thinking. I doubt anyone is saying that Capitalism is evil however any idea taken to an extreme falls apart and that includes Capitalism. Just see the glorious private healthcare in the US. I would not wish that on anyone, and with Tories I am afraid we are very much headed that way.

I accept that the current Labour party leans a bit too much to the left but then again this lot of Tories are downright evil in my view. I shudder to think what a majority government of monsters like Johnson/Cummings, Raab, Gove, Patel etc will do to our country in 5 years.

Our NHS is the direct result of socialist thinking.

Without Winston Churchill the NHS would not exist. | The BMJ

Churchill was a Socialist then?

[Nazaire99]

More whataboutery.

The question wasn’t whether socialism works or fails. Or about Venezuela, or Cuba, or Hong Kong.

The question was when the trickle down from Conservative economics will be felt by large parts of this country.

I don't hold a brief for the Conservative party, but aren't they committed to raising the minimum wage to £10.50? That means that no full time worker will earn less than 2/3rd of the median salary. Or actually that wages are now rising consistently faster than inflation? Or that more people are in jobs (particularly full time jobs) than ever before?

Are there still going to be poor people? Of course there are because there is no workable system that can take into account all peoples circumstances, particularly a change in circumstances.

There is no perfect system, but you seem to be arguing that Labour will improve the lot of the poor. But as I've said and tried to evidence, left wing populism NEVER improves the lot of the poor. It just creates a lot more poor people. That has been proved time and time again over 100 years, but every new time it is tried the people doing it claim that proper socialism was never tried before and they have the magic formula to make it work this time. It is deluded.

[meridian]

Venezuela used to be one of the richest countries in South America, at least on a par with South European countries. It has been completely ruined, both economically and socially by left wing populism. In fact over 90% of the population now live in poverty. A country with the largest oil reserves in the world.

Or compare Cuba and Hong Kong. From similar starting points in the past 60 years Hong Kongs economy has grown by 14x and Cuba's by 2x. Guess which one was capitalist? Or which one is endowed with bountiful natural resources?

Thing is there is no persuading some people. No amount of evidence will ever convince them that socialism fails. Everywhere. Always.

More whataboutery.

The question wasn’t whether socialism works or fails. Or about Venezuela, or Cuba, or Hong Kong.

The question was when the trickle down from Conservative economics will be felt by large parts of this country.

[ContractorOnAMotorbike]

Venezuela used to be one of the richest countries in South America, at least on a par with South European countries. It has been completely ruined, both economically and socially by left wing populism. In fact over 90% of the population now live in poverty. A country with the largest oil reserves in the world.

Or compare Cuba and Hong Kong. From similar starting points in the past 60 years Hong Kongs economy has grown by 14x and Cuba's by 2x. Guess which one was capitalist? Or which one is endowed with bountiful natural resources?

Thing is there is no persuading some people. No amount of evidence will ever convince them that socialism fails. Everywhere. Always.

Venezuela is peddled out every time there is an argument against socialism. Our NHS is the direct result of socialist thinking. I doubt anyone is saying that Capitalism is evil however any idea taken to an extreme falls apart and that includes Capitalism. Just see the glorious private healthcare in the US. I would not wish that on anyone, and with Tories I am afraid we are very much headed that way.

I accept that the current Labour party leans a bit too much to the left but then again this lot of Tories are downright evil in my view. I shudder to think what a majority government of monsters like Johnson/Cummings, Raab, Gove, Patel etc will do to our country in 5 years.

[Nazaire99]

Whataboutery.

Why are you comparing current poverty in the U.K. (a first-world country, number 6 economy) to Venezuela and historical Eastern basket-cases? If you’re going to make a point, at least compare apples to apples.

Is your argument that poverty in the U.K. doesn’t exist because people have a phone and a telly? And public transport to get them to the food bank? Really?

Instead of asking me to go to Venezuela and walk around, perhaps you should get out of your bubble and walk around your own country for a few weeks and ask people here whether Universal Credit is working for them.

Venezuela used to be one of the richest countries in South America, at least on a par with South European countries. It has been completely ruined, both economically and socially by left wing populism. In fact over 90% of the population now live in poverty. A country with the largest oil reserves in the world.

Or compare Cuba and Hong Kong. From similar starting points in the past 60 years Hong Kongs economy has grown by 14x and Cuba's by 2x. Guess which one was capitalist? Or which one is endowed with bountiful natural resources?

Thing is there is no persuading some people. No amount of evidence will ever convince them that socialism fails. Everywhere. Always.