Reply to: IR35 determination - EY Confirm Tool

[Hawkeye]

Yes I have to agree that the reasoning is very weak.

But if the client accepts it, then the risk is on them and not on you. Unless perhaps you're carrying any retrospective risk at this client.

Either way it's good you have it!

It is a new client. Only been there a few weeks.

[WordIsBond]

Not sure why you think the reasoning is weak:

Exercise an adequate level of control over how, what or where you work. Not dictated by Client X

Not controlled in "how" you do the work is a strong outside pointer.

There is financial risk during the engagement with Client X
The contractor is not integrated into Client X's business
There is no significant notice period written into the contract with Client X
The company is permitted to deliver services for other clients whilst still working with Client X

These may not be strong indicators on their own, but in support of the lack of SDC, it says he's not part and parcel, MoO is limited, and he's in business for himself. No one of those would put him outside but the four of them together would make a decent argument, and when you put it with lack of SDC it's pretty clear.

[northernladuk]

Yes I have to agree that the reasoning is very weak.

But if the client accepts it, then the risk is on them and not on you. Unless perhaps you're carrying any retrospective risk at this client.

Either way it's good you have it!

Indeed.

[ChimpMaster]

I'd be interested to know what they consider financial risk.
None of those are particulary strong IR35 indicators bar maybe the last one. Have to be careful with working practices around that one though.

Yes I have to agree that the reasoning is very weak.

But if the client accepts it, then the risk is on them and not on you. Unless perhaps you're carrying any retrospective risk at this client.

Either way it's good you have it!

[Hawkeye]

I'd be interested to know what they consider financial risk.
None of those are particulary strong IR35 indicators bar maybe the last one. Have to be careful with working practices around that one though.

Not sure really. So they had 8 sections to complete with a number of questions underneath each. I was sent the 8 high level areas but not seen the detail below. I think there is more to the result than that but that was the brief above it.

I know there are some inside and some outside but not seen what others were given as they have not shared.

I have tried it via CEST too and got an outside result. Not that it means anything. Also want my results from qdos to see what their view is for my own benefit.

[northernladuk]

I'd be interested to know what they consider financial risk.
None of those are particulary strong IR35 indicators bar maybe the last one. Have to be careful with working practices around that one though.

[Hawkeye]

Sure.

Some of the points they clarified were:

Exercise an adequate level of control over how, what or where you work. Not dictated by Client X
There is financial risk during the engagement with Client X
The contractor is not integrated into Client X's business
There is no significant notice period written into the contract with Client X
The company is permitted to deliver services for other clients whilst still working with Client X

I have not asked for more information. I would like to see what Qdos state as they did a very detailed one which I completed according to the working practices.

[ChimpMaster]

Update for those that were interested. I got my determination from EY and have been classed as outside due to working practices. Still waiting on qdos review after 2 weeks. They said I'm in a queue as they are snowed under. So cannot make a comparison. But the company is abiding by the EY determination and will offer a contract based on that.

Congrats! Can you detail the reasoning behind the Outside determination? Would be good for everyone to get a better understanding.

[Hawkeye]

Update for those that were interested. I got my determination from EY and have been classed as outside due to working practices. Still waiting on qdos review after 2 weeks. They said I'm in a queue as they are snowed under. So cannot make a comparison. But the company is abiding by the EY determination and will offer a contract based on that.

[Hawkeye]

I bet you get good odds on the ones being outside being the ones that they can't do.

so lots of new offshore resources brought in that can't deliver to the same level. Yay.

[LondonManc]

Absolutely. This chain makes me feel nervous. Although is this a real sample of all contracts that have been reviewed by EY or just the ones that have resulted in an inside result?

I bet you get good odds on the ones being outside being the ones that they can't do.

[Hawkeye]

It'll be interesting to see the difference. If you're close enough to the client rep who's answering the tool it would be worth seeing what they answer (or indeed talking to them before they do!)

Absolutely. This chain makes me feel nervous. Although is this a real sample of all contracts that have been reviewed by EY or just the ones that have resulted in an inside result?

[LondonManc]

I'm going to embark on a qdos review and a EY review.

It'll be interesting to see the difference. If you're close enough to the client rep who's answering the tool it would be worth seeing what they answer (or indeed talking to them before they do!)

[Hawkeye]

This is the problem with shifting the determination to a third party who benefits from a given outcome who will happily scare the client with fears of back tax, holiday pay claims, sickpay claims, etc.

DaveB - has anyone actually received a result yet and does it match a QDOS assessment? I would suspect that the client rep answering their part of the tool is being led to an inside assessment.

I'm going to embark on a qdos review and a EY review.

[LondonManc]

and this is the problem with shifting the liability of IR35 onto the client.

There is no definitive definition of employment but contractors were prepared to take more risk, based on case law, experience and knowledge of their own contracts and HMRC's lack of success in the courts and so on and so would happily fly with an 'undetermined' status or better.

By moving the liability to the end user, they have a much more risk adverse stance and so the majority of the tools out there are going to reflect this and only accept a definitive 'outside', which is actually pretty strict. The fact these vendors have a resourcing arm is the icing in the cake.

Once HMRC have destroyed contractors working through Limited Company's, Department for Work and Pensions are going to come after the Disguised Employers (Umbrella's) so the only route open is permanent employment, even if for six months.

This is the problem with shifting the determination to a third party who benefits from a given outcome who will happily scare the client with fears of back tax, holiday pay claims, sickpay claims, etc.

DaveB - has anyone actually received a result yet and does it match a QDOS assessment? I would suspect that the client rep answering their part of the tool is being led to an inside assessment.