Reply to: Heads up inside IR35 offers

[cojak]

I would not trust HMRC any further than I could throw them with regard to looking at previous contracts with the same client after April 2020. There is some evidence that they are already doing this to PS contractors.

[northernladuk]

Well I got your points but I haven't considered any brollies nor I will consider in near future.

You may have to once 2020 hits. Fingers crossed not though.

We are sharing our opinions; not trying to force to accept something not prefered. From my initial topic starter I have listed my reasons not to go inside IR35 I am still thinking the same.

What I'm not completely understanding is are you talking about if you were offered an inside gig right now or are you talking about if you get moved inside in 2020?

Your replies even they are discouraging in style; I am taking some feedback from you as well. So thank you for sharing your thoughts on why you think %20 increase will convince you to become and inside IR35.

Because the 20% offset the tax loses which means the income was somewhat on a par making it financially worthwhile. I don't care about all the employment stuff as I'm getting paid what I want and I'll be leaving shortly so just not worth it. It's just another gig, maybe paid a little less, but just a gig non the less.

On the other hand not trusting HMRC's assurances that IR35 switch will not be investigated retrospectively. Because if you accept switching in your current client; that is a very solid evidence that you have been assessing your self wrong in the past.

I don't believe this is true. It's not a good place to be I'll grant you and you shouldn't be considering it. You should have gone by then. If you are daft enough to stay then that's a cross you'll have to bear. I still believe it will be possible that the new role has changed slightly with certain pillars being removed that were there in the old one so still possible to evidence outside before even though you are inside now. Not in every case and it's not a great place to be in though.

According CEST I am outside at the moment; so when April comes I will expect my end client to sit together with intermediary and assess the contract individually. If there is a blanket IR35 decision; that will mean my previous assessments on CEST are not respected. Which will mean the end client trying to save themselves from the burden and putting my business into risk!

I don't think you should be getting so wound up about something that hasn't happened yet. Plenty of clients and agents are engaging the right people to assess the contracts and making the right moves so I'm optimistic. If, what you say, transpires then you just leave and get another gig. I'm not overly concerned about that at present. My evidence now is strong and happy to prove it's an incorrect assessment by the client if push comes to shove.
If you are kidding yourself, like our recently departed colleague JTB, then you should be very worried.

[blackeagle]

It was a genuine question. If the gig offers either agent PAYE or brolly you are likely to pick brolly and be an employee. I was wondering what rights you will be fighting for and how it would work. Are you wanting rights from the client not the employee or what?

I really don't know. Just adding a realistic situation into the mix.

Well I got your points but I haven't considered any brollies nor I will consider in near future.

We are sharing our opinions; not trying to force to accept something not prefered. From my initial topic starter I have listed my reasons not to go inside IR35 I am still thinking the same.

Your replies even they are discouraging in style; I am taking some feedback from you as well. So thank you for sharing your thoughts on why you think %20 increase will convince you to become and inside IR35.

On the other hand not trusting HMRC's assurances that IR35 switch will not be investigated retrospectively. Because if you accept switching in your current client; that is a very solid evidence that you have been assessing your self wrong in the past.

According CEST I am outside at the moment; so when April comes I will expect my end client to sit together with intermediary and assess the contract individually. If there is a blanket IR35 decision; that will mean my previous assessments on CEST are not respected. Which will mean the end client trying to save themselves from the burden and putting my business into risk!

[northernladuk]

no idea, please enlighten us.

It was a genuine question. If the gig offers either agent PAYE or brolly you are likely to pick brolly and be an employee. I was wondering what rights you will be fighting for and how it would work. Are you wanting rights from the client not the employee or what?

I really don't know. Just adding a realistic situation into the mix.

[JohntheBike]

What happens to umbrella users who are already employees?

no idea, please enlighten us.

[northernladuk]

Your message is a bit confused, but in principle, seems to agree with what I've been saying. If the client gives an inside judgement, and provides their reasons for doing so, especially if those are based on CEST, and they reject any contrary evidence from the contractor, then if the contractor submits that evidence to the ET and claims employment rights, then the contractor is likely to win.

What happens to umbrella users who are already employees?

well, given that you seemed to have caved in and accepted the PS IR35 rules, then you have no moral justification to criticise any of us who feel we should put up a fight.

I didn't cave. I was offered a gig and weighed up the pro's and con's and it turned out to be pretty attractive so I started, did the work, left and started the next gig outside. It's just a blip in a career.

All this taking to court and the like is fine but it's only really viable for a small number of contractor that are going to spend the rest of their careers inside sure? If you are dipping in and out it just becomes not an ideal gig but OK and then you move on? No point making it a fight for something that is months in duration surely?

Plenty of the PS gigs were outside and I am optimistic there will be in the private sector so hopefully there will be the option to just avoid them or suffer them.

[JohntheBike]

You, JohnTheBike and that misreprentation guy should start a WhatsApp group. You'll all be in perfect company. Between the three of you I'm sure you'll all fix this with your letters of complaint.

well, given that you seemed to have caved in and accepted the PS IR35 rules, then you have no moral justification to criticise any of us who feel we should put up a fight.

[JohntheBike]

Lets make something clear Employment Tribunal will decide whether you were a worker or a disguised employee, that's something else. I am aware that HMRC is most of the time is wrong accessing the employment status. But starting April End Client will determine the status and there is no need for an ET then. And when the client says you are an "disguised employee" then you may ask for your employee rights! Simple. Wait and see ETs starting dealing with this kind of new cases starting from April!. By new case I mean End Client decides "disguised employee" so there is no more ET whether to decide your employment status! But employees are free to start now new cases in ETs asking for employee rights that simple! I hope I made myself clear.

Your message is a bit confused, but in principle, seems to agree with what I've been saying. If the client gives an inside judgement, and provides their reasons for doing so, especially if those are based on CEST, and they reject any contrary evidence from the contractor, then if the contractor submits that evidence to the ET and claims employment rights, then the contractor is likely to win.

[northernladuk]

I have to go back and start my contractor duties

You might go and accept it say "YES". But nothing stops you going to an ET later asking for employee rights where you have high chance of winning. I am sure someone will no doubt do this after April 2020.

For everyone who is asking My plan is rejecting IR35 offers but before rejecting I want to bloat their minds with my "employee rights" questions. If they accept HMRC threat than now they will have to deal with our threat!.

I will come back for replies evening.

You, JohnTheBike and that misreprentation guy should start a WhatsApp group. You'll all be in perfect company. Between the three of you I'm sure you'll all fix this with your letters of complaint.

[JohntheBike]

I have to go back and start my contractor duties

You might go and accept it say "YES". But nothing stops you going to an ET later asking for employee rights where you have high chance of winning. I am sure someone will no doubt do this after April 2020.

For everyone who is asking My plan is rejecting IR35 offers but before rejecting I want to bloat their minds with my "employee rights" questions. If they accept HMRC threat than now they will have to deal with our threat!.

I will come back for replies evening.

agreed

[blackeagle]

In bold - That isn't what the client is saying.

You are talking about us all being a Susan Winchester here aren't you?
What do we do if they say no?

I have to go back and start my contractor duties

You might go and accept it say "YES". But nothing stops you going to an ET later asking for employee rights where you have high chance of winning. I am sure someone will no doubt do this after April 2020.

For everyone who is asking My plan is rejecting IR35 offers but before rejecting I want to bloat their minds with my "employee rights" questions. If they accept HMRC threat than now they will have to deal with our threat!.

I will come back for replies evening.

[blackeagle]

Tell him about the difference between tax and employment law and the situation as it stands after he goes inside but before he's won at ET.

PLease read my other reply + please read the definition of "disguised employment" in gov.uk. Thanks

[northernladuk]

Lets make something clear Employment Tribunal will decide whether you were a worker or a disguised employee, that's something else. I am aware that HMRC is most of the time is wrong accessing the employment status. But starting April End Client will determine the status and there is no need for an ET then. And when the client says you are an "disguised employee" then you may ask for your employee rights! Simple. Wait and see ETs starting dealing with this kind of new cases starting from April!. By new case I mean End Client decides "disguised employee" so there is no more ET whether to decide your employment status! But employees are free to start now new cases in ETs asking for employee rights that simple! I hope I made myself clear.

In bold - That isn't what the client is saying.

You are talking about us all being a Susan Winchester here aren't you?
What do we do if they say no?

[blackeagle]

only the ET can determine that!

Lets make something clear Employment Tribunal will decide whether you were a worker or a disguised employee, that's something else. I am aware that HMRC is most of the time is wrong accessing the employment status. But starting April End Client will determine the status and there is no need for an ET then. And when the client says you are an "disguised employee" then you may ask for your employee rights! Simple. Wait and see ETs starting dealing with this kind of new cases starting from April!. By new case I mean End Client decides "disguised employee" so there is no more ET whether to decide your employment status! But employees are free to start now new cases in ETs asking for employee rights that simple! I hope I made myself clear.

[northernladuk]

well, despite my previous question, no one has been able to advise us what issues the FTT will consider, which the ET will not, and vice versa. So I can't advise him as you suggest. Until some legal eagle here can point out the differences, then clearly I can't advise him.

Which is enough to prove his comment you are 100% employed is incorrect.