Reply to: IR35 in PS gets reported in the media...

[eek]

Think about that in the contract market for a second....

It would be glorious, but would those figures ever get seen?

The issue always boils down to the fact we are similar (but significantly different) to others.

Hence agencies use the things we like (gross pay advertisements) to abuse their position in the market to advertise higher rates of pay that a supply teacher will never actually see. Said supply teacher goes joins the books of the agency offering the higher pay rate and is then trapped by t&cs and umbrella fees that encourage you to stay...

The way we work means that other agencies are using our working methods and are tricking other people into using them. That is really at least half the reason for the current crack down.

[MarkT]

Chasing the little people when the big corporates and super wealthy avoid huge amounts of tax.

It's easier, quicker and lets people feel important when they inform on their neighbours.

[PurpleGorilla]

Chasing the little people when the big corporates and super wealthy avoid huge amounts of tax.

[LondonManc]

Lucy posted a comment on linkedin about the unite union article - and the more I think about it the more I think unite is right.

For supply teachers the deal used to be £140 a day - paid by agency / school as PAYE.
Now its £150-160 a day (if lucky) paid via umbrella.

What it should be is still advertised at £140 a day. The Umbrella fees and employers NI shouldn't be being included in the advertised total (they aren't when you advertise a salary) and they should never been seen by the supply teacher...

I wonder if the correct approach would be for unison to continually complain to the advertising standards board and for legislation that states that umbrella fees and employers NI should be paid by the employer....

Think about that in the contract market for a second....

It would be glorious, but would those figures ever get seen?

[eek]

Yet they're still targeting the wrong people - clients get off the hook without paying business NICs whatever approach they ramp up.

Lucy posted a comment on linkedin about the unite union article - and the more I think about it the more I think unite is right.

For supply teachers the deal used to be £140 a day - paid by agency / school as PAYE.
Now its £150-160 a day (if lucky) paid via umbrella.

What it should be is still advertised at £140 a day. The Umbrella fees and employers NI shouldn't be being included in the advertised total (they aren't when you advertise a salary) and they should never been seen by the supply teacher...

I wonder if the correct approach would be for unison to continually complain to the advertising standards board and for legislation that states that umbrella fees and employers NI should be paid by the employer....

[SueEllen]

Yet they're still targeting the wrong people - clients get off the hook without paying business NICs whatever approach they ramp up.

That's what the unions are fighting for.

[SueEllen]

I thought the dividends were also going to screw the pension funds?

Why?

It is individual taxation.

[LondonManc]

In my view, that's exactly what they'll do; introduce measures that render different forms of income more "equivalent" for tax purposes. Dividend tax is a somewhat blunt tool with implications far beyond the contracting sector, but it's a straightfoward lever, available to them right now, whereas most others require broad-based reform (i.e. long grass). I don't think they're really listening to arguments about the flexible workforce.

I suppose the cynic in me has always thought that the PS debacle was fully intended, as a springboard to the argument that rapid equivalence in the private sector was essential, but the comment in this article suggests otherwise, and that they'll probably take a different route.

I'm not sure how many of you read the recent report from the IFS, but you can be sure that the Gov't is paying attention, and increased dividend taxation, increased NI for the self-employed etc. will all be on the table as interim measures to equivalent taxation of all forms of income in the long-run.

Yet they're still targeting the wrong people - clients get off the hook without paying business NICs whatever approach they ramp up.

[bobspud]

But they don't need to increase it much in % terms, and rich pensioners don't have the same leverage under May. I'd expect several measures in future that impact the upper quantiles of pension income.

I thought the dividends were also going to screw the pension funds?

[jamesbrown]

Increasing that much further impacts others rather than just contractors including pensioners with a bit of savings

But they don't need to increase it much in % terms, and rich pensioners don't have the same leverage under May. I'd expect several measures in future that impact the upper quantiles of pension income.

[eek]

The clever thing to do is to increase the dividend tax.

Increasing that much further impacts others rather than just contractors including pensioners with a bit of savings...

IR35 now comes down to where does Employers NI come from - the solution would be to make it part of Employees NI and mandate a 13.8% increase in gross pay to reflect it but that isn't going to work.

We again reach the point in the project where you look at where you want to be and think we'll we ain't going to get there from here. And that is true of both our employment laws and our income tax rules...

[jamesbrown]

The clever thing to do is to increase the dividend tax.

In my view, that's exactly what they'll do; introduce measures that render different forms of income more "equivalent" for tax purposes. Dividend tax is a somewhat blunt tool with implications far beyond the contracting sector, but it's a straightfoward lever, available to them right now, whereas most others require broad-based reform (i.e. long grass). I don't think they're really listening to arguments about the flexible workforce.

I suppose the cynic in me has always thought that the PS debacle was fully intended, as a springboard to the argument that rapid equivalence in the private sector was essential, but the comment in this article suggests otherwise, and that they'll probably take a different route.

I'm not sure how many of you read the recent report from the IFS, but you can be sure that the Gov't is paying attention, and increased dividend taxation, increased NI for the self-employed etc. will all be on the table as interim measures to equivalent taxation of all forms of income in the long-run.

[SueEllen]

They may shelve it for now but only to try it on again later. 100% guaranteed.

The clever thing to do is to increase the dividend tax.

[DotasScandal]

Until I read that comment, I thought it was almost inevitably going to be extended in, say, April 2018....

They may shelve it for now but only to try it on again later. 100% guaranteed.

[SueEllen]

Are doctors and nurses a good example, surely most of them are inside IR35 anyway?

Depends on how senior they are.

If they are a consultant, GP or senior nurse they aren't. But then they may have to manage staff so are...