Reply to: De Graaf/TwentyPlus/IOM DTA (Double Tax)

[Finalwhistle]

Reviving thread

Gents,
This is an old thread so I’m assuming most of you de Graaf users were on the old WBT scheme?
I used De graaf from 12 month onwards under a self employed loan arrangement.
Anyone involved with this? I have 3 other contractors looking to take arrangement to tax advisor..
Thanks for getting in touch

[webberg]

The schemes struck down as a result of the loss of the Huitson case have mostly had Follower Notices.

Failure to deal with those leads to 50% penalties.

Most of those are now over in terms of time limits and any corrective action not taken has already resulted in a penalty. Nothing we can do about that.

If tax has not been paid, then yes, interest continues to accrue at 2.75% pa simple.

[BrilloPad]

Interest will still be accruing. Penalties and surcharges can be increased. Or, at least, if you pay now there might be a reduction in the draconian penalties HMRC are implying.

Under the arrangement you say there is no risk(excepting what I said in the last paragraph). If you can stand the mental strain. Some can, so have nothing to lose. Personally I like to put these things behind me.

I hope your idea works.

[webberg]

Not necessarily.

The present situation is that HMRC has "won".

They are asking you for the full amount of tax they claim is due, plus interest and penalties. That amount is already due and payable and nothing we can do at this moment will change that.

We say that we have an idea that has some legs.

It may not work.

We will not be charging unless or until we have achieved a reduction in the above figure.

Enough "skin in the game"?

[BrilloPad]

Whilst I would echo a lot of the above and can, with the benefit of hindsight, point out that the advisers working for De Graaf were always unlikely to be able to give you unbiased advice that did not create a conflict for them, the game may not be quite over.

I suspect that you have had a follower notice and penalty for non payment?

There is not much we can do about that but we may be able to take another course.

No promises and it's a long shot and it will not be free, but it would apply to a fair number of people and by spreading the cost between them, might be worth a go. Happy to supply more information which can be taken to an adviser of your choice for an opinion.

Would that involve risking further penalties?

[PokemonStay]

It is incredibly important that you do not risk any more penalties.

Many have tried to get a solution. All were charged. All were, in effect, a scam.

You are strongly advised not to throw any more money. It will just prolong the agony.

Almost no-one is prepared to risk penalties and the fees will be enormous.

The most important question is "how much skin do they have in the game?". If none, that should speak volumes. NTRT, which is now closed, did well, only because those involved were all affected.

Of course, you will take the advice you want to hear. No doubt I will be accused of mocking you. Feel free to totally disregard.

[webberg]

Whilst I would echo a lot of the above and can, with the benefit of hindsight, point out that the advisers working for De Graaf were always unlikely to be able to give you unbiased advice that did not create a conflict for them, the game may not be quite over.

I suspect that you have had a follower notice and penalty for non payment?

There is not much we can do about that but we may be able to take another course.

No promises and it's a long shot and it will not be free, but it would apply to a fair number of people and by spreading the cost between them, might be worth a go. Happy to supply more information which can be taken to an adviser of your choice for an opinion.

[DotasScandal]

Very true. And unbelievable HMRC do little to close the new schemes down. I have reported one such scheme. I never heard back.

https://www.dotas-scandal.org/top-10...dance-schemes/

[BrilloPad]

What's why all these companies have shut down and their promotors are now touting dodgy umbrella companies to take money from more unsuspecting contractors.

Very true. And unbelievable HMRC do little to close the new schemes down. I have reported one such scheme. I never heard back.

Sadly there is no way of fighting HMRC.

[BrilloPad]

There are clearly many of us affected and we should be getting together to seek compensation, not mocking each other.

Sorry you feel some are mocking you. Cojak is(as ever) right - people are trying to help you.

I was not in De Graaf - I was in a similar scheme(MP) - though I know a few in De Graaf. Some have suffered psychological issues due to HMRC actions.

There were not that many in De Graaf. A handfull joined NTRT in 2011. That is now closed. The majority of those in NTRT were from MP. MP were the only promoter who stayed around. And their case is lost now.

Any attempt to seem compensation would be almost impossible to achieve. And any payout almost impossible to collect. You would need a legal fund of millions.

Effectively you would just be burning more money.

Sometimes you have to admit you made a mistake, put it behind you, and move on. I was one of those in Equitable life. Suddenly it was 12.5% loss to get your money out. Then 20%. I realized that it would only get worse. I took the 20% hit. I am so pleased I did.

Please pay up and move on. Anything else will just make it worse.

Feel free to PM me if you want to chat further. I have alot of experience of this sort of thing.

[cojak]

There are clearly many of us affected and we should be getting together to seek compensation, not mocking each other.

I see no-one mocking others on this thread. I do see a thread that is nine years old however - it slipped by my radar in 2013 so I'll put it in the correct forum now, HMRC Scheme Enquiries.

You are late to the party I'm afraid. Compensation has been demanded, considered by those who demanded and accepted that there is no-one around from whom to demand compensation.

What's why all these companies have shut down and their promotors are now touting dodgy umbrella companies to take money from more unsuspecting contractors.

[BrilloPad]

I think you've got off lightly compared to some.

And its worth settling quickly. I heard today of someone who asked HMRC for a settlement amount. They were sent a quote. Before paying HMRC said they could not give a final settlement figure!

HMRC = Happy Morons Ripping Clients

[TakenForARide]

My story

My story is very similar to FloggingDolphin’s, posted earlier in the thread, involving Reed Accountancy, TwentyPlus, Focused Consulting … (how many more parties?)

I was placed by Reed Accountancy in a role, who told me they preferred to pay me through this IoM Trust arrangement, telling me this was tax advantageous. I didn’t really have the chance to decline and say I wanted it as PAYE or ltd co. The decision was taken for me, although if I knew then what I know now, I would sooner have left the assignment immediately!

I have a letter on file from deGraaf instructing me how to complete my tax return, with explanatory notes in boxes (no income was hidden. Indeed it was assessed by HMRC as not liable for income tax. It was only years later, when the DTA arrangement was stopped by HMRC and they claimed it had been illegal all along, that they went back in time and sent revised tax assessments for prior years to contractors. At this point, Customer Services at deGraaf were around, and I still have numerous emails from them instructing me/us not to settle tax accounts as they were taking it to court as a class action. So, I haven’t settled as deGraaf instructed me not to do so, as it weakened their case if contractors were seen to be settling.

Even if deGraaf are no more, their directors must still be out there, and are liable, surely? If I gave false information, I can be sued, which I why I have professional indemnity insurance. They gave information and advice that has proven to be bad advice, costing me/us thousands of pounds in income tax and onerous interest payments from 10 years ago.

There are clearly many of us affected and we should be getting together to seek compensation, not mocking each other.

[TakenForARide]

Can I ask when you received your bill?

De Graaf has gone. There is no class action. You could hire an accountant to challenge the amount. However you are unlikely to get anywhere.

Sadly the best course of action (in fact the only course of action) is to pay up.

Last week.

[rsingh]

...leaving me to pay £4800 income tax plus £1500 penalty. ?

I think you've got off lightly compared to some.