Reply to: TTP - time to pay Loan Charge and Settlement

[BrilloPad]

anyone who frequented these HMRC Scheme enquiries forums for the last 3/4 years and is still using these schemes needs their head examined granted. Those that havent found these pages and read through them are sitting on a timebomb and I still dont beleive HMRC has actually advised half of these and probably a greater % dont even realise.

I found out recently an well known Estate Agents was using loans as a means of paying bonuses to all their partners.

These loan schemes are wider spread than just IT contractors and those professions mentioned often like NHS workers. In the 15 years or so HMRC did nothing these scheme promotors have exanded their network or offerings to just about anyone. IT cotractors are the tip of the iceberg.

I agree. JUst to add that the majority of anti-vaxxers are degree educated. Its amazing, and quite sad, what some people will fall for. I do wish HMRC would act much faster. Its almost as if they are hapy for people to be caught? Okay,. I know this is ridiculous. They are just inefficient.

But the only reason I went into this pile of poo in 2006 was all my friends were in the scheme. HMRC knew about it in 2001. We all knew it would close. No-one expected retrospection in 2008. Looking back I was incredibly stupid. And now 13 years later the fight goes on.

[lowpaidworker]

There are some people STILL using these schemes. They still believe. HMRC did say they did not work. But left the schemes open. Over 15 years in the case of loan schemes. They need to close them far quicker.

Of course in 2008 I was moved from DTA to loan scheme without my consent. I got out straight away - I knew HMRC would use retrospection. If only everyone in the IT contract community listened to me, life would be so much better. And not just on schemes. SAdly people think they know better than me. More fool them.

anyone who frequented these HMRC Scheme enquiries forums for the last 3/4 years and is still using these schemes needs their head examined granted. Those that havent found these pages and read through them are sitting on a timebomb and I still dont beleive HMRC has actually advised half of these and probably a greater % dont even realise.

I found out recently an well known Estate Agents was using loans as a means of paying bonuses to all their partners.

These loan schemes are wider spread than just IT contractors and those professions mentioned often like NHS workers. In the 15 years or so HMRC did nothing these scheme promotors have exanded their network or offerings to just about anyone. IT cotractors are the tip of the iceberg.

[BrilloPad]

so we can see why people have racked up years in these schemes. Plus remembering HMRC did nothing to inform the tax payer thier scheme will be challenged and they will be required to pay the tax and substantial penalties. Imagine reading this in the small print or receiving a letter around the time you first submitted your SATR explaining HMRCs position. I wonder how many scheme users would be in the predicament they are in now had they had even a years notice

There are some people STILL using these schemes. They still believe. HMRC did say they did not work. But left the schemes open. Over 15 years in the case of loan schemes. They need to close them far quicker.

Of course in 2008 I was moved from DTA to loan scheme without my consent. I got out straight away - I knew HMRC would use retrospection. If only everyone in the IT contract community listened to me, life would be so much better. And not just on schemes. SAdly people think they know better than me. More fool them.

[Fred Bloggs]

so we can see why people have racked up years in these schemes. Plus remembering HMRC did nothing to inform the tax payer thier scheme will be challenged and they will be required to pay the tax and substantial penalties. Imagine reading this in the small print or receiving a letter around the time you first submitted your SATR explaining HMRCs position. I wonder how many scheme users would be in the predicament they are in now had they had even a years notice

Interesting question to which there is no answer. I am minded to take the view that given the affected people voluntarily put themselves in the line of fire, the outcome would be not a lot different. Of course, there's going to be multiple opinions on that and none of them really matter. It is what it is. It has always been the individual's responsibility to pay the correct amount of income tax.

[lowpaidworker]

so we can see why people have racked up years in these schemes. Plus remembering HMRC did nothing to inform the tax payer thier scheme will be challenged and they will be required to pay the tax and substantial penalties. Imagine reading this in the small print or receiving a letter around the time you first submitted your SATR explaining HMRCs position. I wonder how many scheme users would be in the predicament they are in now had they had even a years notice

[Fred Bloggs]

HMRC never thought how duplicitous the scheme providers would be.

HMRC thought requiring schemes to register and to place their DOTAS id on the tax form would scare people away.

Then within a few hours (and a night down the pub) the scheme promoters decided to promote anything with a DOTAS id as HMRC "approved" and used the id as a sign of "approval"

Also I don't think Ian Richardson GT Leeds was being jovial, just pointing out an example he was aware of.

Without a doubt you are right. The other approach taken wasn't the "we are HMRC aprroved", it was "no need to declare DOTAS, we're outside that, we aren't a tax avoidance scheme, we're fully HMRC compliant".

[eek]

And he may have declared them on his SATR, been told they are an approved scheme and heard nothing from HMRC for a good many years. The said peson probably can't sleep is now having anxiety attacks and suffering depression.

All under the watch of HMRC and Tax Professionals. If the law was clear in 2010 how comes these schemes are still beiing sold and certain elements of the tax profession are still peddling them.

Am not sure I find the boastful almost jovial comment that funny personally

HMRC never thought how duplicitous the scheme providers would be.

HMRC thought requiring schemes to register and to place their DOTAS id on the tax form would scare people away.

Then within a few hours (and a night down the pub) the scheme promoters decided to promote anything with a DOTAS id as HMRC "approved" and used the id as a sign of "approval"

Also I don't think Ian Richardson GT Leeds was being jovial, just pointing out an example he was aware of.

[Fred Bloggs]

And he may have declared them on his SATR, been told they are an approved scheme and heard nothing from HMRC for a good many years. The said peson probably can't sleep is now having anxiety attacks and suffering depression.

All under the watch of HMRC and Tax Professionals. If the law was clear in 2010 how comes these schemes are still beiing sold and certain elements of the tax profession are still peddling them.

Am not sure I find the boastful almost jovial comment that funny personally

It's very much not funny. I don't think it was intended to be.

[lowpaidworker]

My favourite real life example is someone who has been a "contractor" at the same multinational for more than 5 years now

During the two years that he was employed by one "umbrella", he received loans > £350k …..

And he may have declared them on his SATR, been told they are an approved scheme and heard nothing from HMRC for a good many years. The said peson probably can't sleep is now having anxiety attacks and suffering depression.

All under the watch of HMRC and Tax Professionals. If the law was clear in 2010 how comes these schemes are still beiing sold and certain elements of the tax profession are still peddling them.

Am not sure I find the boastful almost jovial comment that funny personally

[DavidD]

1) Yes
2) A lot of back and forth - I did calculations myself and had to correct HMRC's calculations many times.
3) Did it myself.
4) yes
5) no
6) It's about 15 years (the tax bill is ~80k then + ~25k of Interest (forward and backwards)

Once this started to unravel (after the first APNs) I swore to myself that I would not pay another penny to any of the people in this 'industry' - they all asked : Pinotage, the scheme providers, defence funds, FS Capital etc... and they all got nothing and will never get anything.

For me the bottom line is this - the schemes to avoid tax failed, I've dealt with HMRC to pay back the tax + interest (Once HMRC realise your serious about settling they are much easier to deal with imho). HMRC is the top dog and will be paid back - all the other scavengers can FO.

[eek]

My favourite real life example is someone who has been a "contractor" at the same multinational for more than 5 years now

During the two years that he was employed by one "umbrella", he received loans > £350k …..

- but at least he qualifies under my rule that using a scheme is a rich person's game.

[Fred Bloggs]

My favourite real life example is someone who has been a "contractor" at the same multinational for more than 5 years now

During the two years that he was employed by one "umbrella", he received loans > £350k …..

Oh dear...........

[Ian Richardson GT Leeds]

PYFT

Which would be completely unrealistic if the tax bill was more than a hundred grand or so. Anyone persistent in using schemes for a number of years on a day rate of more 500 quid could quite likely fit that bill. I really don't have much idea, but a tax debt of more than a 100 grand is perhaps not unheard of?

My favourite real life example is someone who has been a "contractor" at the same multinational for more than 5 years now

During the two years that he was employed by one "umbrella", he received loans > £350k …..

[Fred Bloggs]

True but it wasn't so long ago that HMRC were only accepting max 2 years TTP.

Which would be completely unrealistic if the tax bill was more than a hundred grand or so. Anyone persistent in using schemes for a number of years on a day rate of more 500 quid could quite likely fit that bill. I really don't have much idea, but a tax debt of more than a 100 grand is perhaps not unheard of?

[Delendog]

True but it wasn't so long ago that HMRC were only accepting max 2 years TTP.

Tax £77K FI added £22K -£99K total