Reply to: 40,000 people to be hit by loan charge

[ASB]

Honest, industrious and value-adding citizens are about to be brutally wiped out by an absolutely selfish few who simply could not care less as they themselves are unaffected. Do we deserve this treatment? You could fight by yourself and be rigorously punished or do we organise ourselves? Clock is ticking - two years will pass rapidly.

Deserved ?

Not really no.

For the period dot until 2008 odd that should be treated under the law as it was then. Of course hmrc scuppered this, contrary to all judicial principles. This is when pmg stood up in the house and said "don't care about what has happened previously it is taxable." That should have been prospective.

For the period 2008 until apn regime any loans taken then should be "at risk" of taxation when finally settled. But immune from apn.

For the period apn until 2019 announcement. Apn fair enough. But no 2019 payment.

Everything should be judged based upon the law in place at the time.

The upcoming 2019 provisions by applying to pre existing loans are significantly retrospective. That is simply wrong. It is legislation that should achieve what it sets out to in the first place.

I believe that prior to the 08 announcements loans should not have succeeded in removing the fund from the tax net. But i also believe that they did work.

So, have holders been treated badly. Undoubtedly. But there shouldn't be a free ride for loans taken after '08.

[demby]

I wonder what the HMRC stance is where the loan provider has dropped off the face of the earth.

How can I arrange to repay a load when the provider no longer exists?

[DotasScandal]

The crazy part is you'll have an HMRC legal team in court room 1 arguing that these are NOT loans and should be taxed as income.
Then in court room 2 you'll have an HMRC legal team arguing these ARE loans and therefore taxable under the new legislation.

I'm sure they see no problem with this whasoever.
"Have cake and eat it" is all the rage in Brexit Britain.

[flamel]

I don't think the 40,000 includes self-employed loan schemes, like Montpelier's, which come under a separate measure.

https://www.gov.uk/government/public...eration-update

Impact on individuals, households and families

This measure is expected to affect up to 40,000 individuals who have entered into disguised remuneration avoidance schemes. Some of these individuals will be unable to repay the loans, agree a settlement with HMRC before 5 April 2019, or pay the loan charge arising on 5 April 2019. The government anticipates that some of these individuals will become insolvent as a result.

This measure is not expected to have a material impact on family formation, stability or breakdown.

I must remember to tell my family that my insolvency won't have a material impact. I may need to surround myself with sandbags and wear a suit of armour when I have that conversation. Maybe I could invite someone from HMRC round to help me explain it to them?

[Whysoserious]

BG hasn't won the lottery yet.

There are a few schemes putting the fight to HMRC on a number of fronts and have fighting funds running into the millions. HMRC will be challenged in court on all fronts.

The crazy part is you'll have an HMRC legal team in court room 1 arguing that these are NOT loans and should be taxed as income.

Then in court room 2 you'll have an HMRC legal team arguing these ARE loans and therefore taxable under the new legislation.

The simple fact remains however if, through the courts the schemes are found to be 100% loans and not disguised remuneration then HMRC don't get a penny. The loan charge applies to disguised remuneration loans.

[DotasScandal]

Isn't BG doing some of this?

BG hasn't won the lottery yet.

[Invisiblehand]

Just think what you could do with a few £m.

• Hire a crack team of tax QCs to find holes and ways around the loan charge legislation (where there's a will, there's a f***ing way)
• Force HMRC to issue Closure Notices for the schemes and drag them, kicking and screaming, to the FTT
• Launch a JR with the best QCs money can buy, not that it will probably achieve anything, but just to torpedo HMRC's timetable for collecting any of the money, and buy time for cases to go to the FTT
• Take out adverts in the National Press to recruit more members to the cause
• etc etc

The above would be HMRC's worst nightmare.

But it's all a dream, of course, because no-one will do anything much.

Isn't BG doing some of this?

[davetza]

The current rules state you only need to keep documents related to tax records for 5 years from the relevant return. Does anyone have any idea how disputes on the amounts of tax owed are going to be resolved when a lot of the documents detailing the amounts involved in these loans will not be around.

[Delendog]

Just reading out of interest and wondering what is meant by an "outstanding loan". Surely if you have such a loan then your accountant should report it on your Tax Return every year, in which case you have to pay BIK on it for life - because the loan is not repaid. So HMRC can identify you've had an 'outstanding loan' since whatever time, because it's always reported on your Return.

Is that correct?

No. BIK doesn't apply if you are no longer employed by the original loan provider.

[ChimpMaster]

Just reading out of interest and wondering what is meant by an "outstanding loan". Surely if you have such a loan then your accountant should report it on your Tax Return every year, in which case you have to pay BIK on it for life - because the loan is not repaid. So HMRC can identify you've had an 'outstanding loan' since whatever time, because it's always reported on your Return.

Is that correct?

[DotasScandal]

Amen to all of the above. I can guarantee that HM's Highway Robbers would absolute hate it.
They are only as strong as we are disunited.

It's correct that contractors by and large are thick-skulled when it comes to working together.
But necessity may change that.

[DonkeyRhubarb]

Just think what you could do with a few £m.

• Hire a crack team of tax QCs to find holes and ways around the loan charge legislation (where there's a will, there's a f***ing way)
• Force HMRC to issue Closure Notices for the schemes and drag them, kicking and screaming, to the FTT
• Launch a JR with the best QCs money can buy, not that it will probably achieve anything, but just to torpedo HMRC's timetable for collecting any of the money, and buy time for cases to go to the FTT
• Take out adverts in the National Press to recruit more members to the cause
• etc etc

The above would be HMRC's worst nightmare.

But it's all a dream, of course, because no-one will do anything much.

[DonkeyRhubarb]

I wonder how many of the 40,000 will only find out about this when the brown envelope arrives after 5/4/19?

Unfortunately most of those 40,000 will be contractors, and we know what it's like mobilising contractors to do anything. (Herding cats)

Most would baulk at throwing say £1000 into a fighting fund, even if they are on the hook for £100,000.

Shame really because tens of thousands x £1000 = fire power!

[foobar]

Honest, industrious and value-adding citizens are about to be brutally wiped out by an absolutely selfish few who simply could not care less as they themselves are unaffected. Do we deserve this treatment? You could fight by yourself and be rigorously punished or do we organise ourselves? Clock is ticking - two years will pass rapidly.

[DotasScandal]

Yep, 2019 charge = how to wipe out enquiries, Discovery Assessments, APN's, FTT's, Judicial Reviews and all due process that comes with them, all in one hit !!!!

Yes, that's pretty much the plan. The cover-up of the century and the plunder of the century, all rolled into one.

And whatever side effects, they'll just blame on Brexit of course.