Reply to: Montpelier DTA scheme bulletin

[DealorNoDeal]

CS, it might be worth logging in through the Government Gateway to see which of the years 2002 to 2007 are showing an unpaid tax liability. (I'm guessing the tax will have been postponed pending appeal.)

The on-line figures won't include NICs or interest but it might clarify which years you're actually liable for.

[Captain Slog]

BP - would you mind sharing the name of your advisor please (apologies if I've missed it in the thread) as I have an equally confusing raft of letters and demands.

I had a cover letter telling me, in Jan 2022, I'd been sent a demand in Oct 2019 - which I am certain I never received, and then they claim to have sent a follow-up in Dec 2019 (again I didn't see this). The cover letter runs through consecutive years from 2002 to 2007 - some of which are closed and have previously been excluded from any action!

Also, for three of these periods, I had operated through a limited company and had paid significant amounts of CT. I have asked for copies of my original submissions, which may have been delivered by Montpelier/ MTM but all HMRC have ever sent me is the computer output - which varies from time to time.

The information regularly varies, the two demands from 2019 quote different balances due...

What should I do?

[Beaver Programming]

And finally some good news...
The late payment surcharges have all been 'cancelled' after a conversation with Her Majesty's finest.
I'm still not entirely clear why they were issued, the only explanation offered were they were generated automatically and shouldn't have been. I've waited to receive confirmation in writing in the hope that would include an explanation, but it didn't. Although I've had a few weeks of needless stress and worry but at least thats no longer hanging over me, which is a great relief.
There are a couple of things I did find out which may be relevant.
Firstly, I have never been issued with APN's for any of the years, only closure notices (thanks for clarifying they are different things)
Secondly, the closure notices were re-issued as they were originally issued incorrectly and that seemed to be the only reason offered as to why the surcharge notices may have been automatically generated but I couldn't see the connection.
I know not everyone has had the good fortune I have, but I am left thinking its always worth challenging...sometimes they get things wrong...

[Jumper]

Fair point. Was trying to make some comparison

[ns1]

(There were no loans with this scheme, so the loan charge is irrelevant.)

There must have been open enquiries, for each year, for HMRC to issue APNs and closure notices.

Surcharges kick in if you don't pay the APNs on time (2x5% after 6 months). Surcharges would also kick in, if you don't settle or appeal closure notices.

Until his advisor confirms with HMRC what the surcharges are for, and whether they are valid, there's not much point speculating.

[Jumper]

Evening folks
Long time member - even longer member of the Montpelier DTA scheme, but first time poster
Up to a few months ago I had been flip-flopping between head in the sand, ignore it and it might go away and waking up in a sweat sheer panic, neither of which did any good as I finally received APNs a few months ago.
Based on the info posted here, it seemed the game was up so I paid what I could and agreed a Time To Pay agreement with Her Majesty's finest.
That was about a month ago, and I thought that was the end of it....
...until the end of last week when I received SA 'Late Payment Surcharge Notices' - one for each year I was in the scheme. This, I wasn't expecting and I've spent the weekend worried sick about them and only this evening plucked up courage to look here for advice.

I found some which suggested the only thing to do was pay up, then I found this post which filled me with hope, but not too much as I've had hopes dashed so many times before.

I notice this post is several years old, so I wonder if anyone has had recent experience of receiving late payment surcharge notices after agreeing to pay, and what they did with them ?

How did your originally receive the demand prior to the APNs? You’ve said that it’s SA late surcharges so that suggests they are charging you for unpaid tax for that particular year but you’ve said they are applying the surcharge for each year you were in the scheme?

that doesn’t sound right to me, especially given the loan charge. Did you disclose? Any surcharge should then only apply to the year you were supposed to disclose than rather previous years.

I also thought surcharge can go to the maximum of 15% where it exceeds 13months.

[ns1]

There is no connection between closure notices and APNs. They are two separate things. Given what you've said, I would assume that the 2x5% surcharges are for non-payment of APNs after 6 months.

Regarding the interest, they'll probably argue that you could have made payments on account at any time to stop some of the interest accruing.

The only word of caution I would give, with regards to challenging this stuff, is don't let it stress you out. Sometimes it's best just to draw a line under this crap, and move on with your life.

[Beaver Programming]

Thats a very good point...
So I received a letter in Feb 2020 acknowledging that the closure notices I had been issued were 'in error' (more on that in a moment) and they were eventually corrected and sent to me in June this Year, so less than 6 months ago. Assuming an APN is the same a 'Closure notice' (apologies for my ignorance here) then I guess the demands could have been triggered because they're working off a date prior to June 2021. I feel another straw to clutch at...

I'll keep this thread posted on any news.

BTW, if anyone is interested (no pun intended), I had appealed for a reduction in interest, based on the fact the letter of Feb 2020 acknowledged the closure notices were in error and stated I would receive revised ones "in a few weeks". I actually got them 16 months later. My appeal was for interest not to be charged for the period after Feb 2020 as I had been willing to pay then and didn't because I was awaiting the corrected notices. Needless to say that's been rejected on the grounds that although it wasn't my fault they have to charge interest "to compensate the Exchequer"....presumably for their own mistakes.
I'm considering whether to submit a further appeal, but hold out little hope seeing as they act as judge, jury and executioner on these matters.

[ns1]

Thanks. Although it doesn't say on the demand whether its for late payment of APNs or for the original demand, the surcharges are 10% (2 x 5%) which suggests to me it's the latter as it mentions the second 5% surcharge is for payment not being made within six months, and its not been six months since I settled and agreed a payment plan.

Was there more than 6 months between the date on the APNs and the date you settled? If so, this could explain the 2 x 5%.

I guess another possibility is that the APNs are still showing as outstanding on their system, even though you've settled.

You've certainly nothing to lose by challenging the surcharges.

Good luck.

[Beaver Programming]

Were the surcharges 5% for late payment of APNs? If so, I'm guessing you didn't pay the APNs within the allowed 28 days?

It's annoying that they didn't raise this at the time you settled and agreed the TTP. If you do have to pay these surcharges, you might be able to add them to the TTP.

Thanks. Although it doesn't say on the demand whether its for late payment of APNs or for the original demand, the surcharges are 10% (2 x 5%) which suggests to me it's the latter as it mentions the second 5% surcharge is for payment not being made within six months, and its not been six months since I settled and agreed a payment plan.

I spoke to my adviser today and remain hopeful they'll be withdrawn. He also believes they had agreed no surcharges would be made and is going to get in touch to find out why they've been issued.

And while I'm on... another example of HMRC making their own rules is the fact the notices are dated 5th October but I didn't receive them until 14th October - so over a week later. Speaks of the shambles they are that I don't even think this is worth complaining to them about.

[ns1]

Were the surcharges 5% for late payment of APNs? If so, I'm guessing you didn't pay the APNs within the allowed 28 days?

It's annoying that they didn't raise this at the time you settled and agreed the TTP. If you do have to pay these surcharges, you might be able to add them to the TTP.

[Fred Bloggs]

Thanks - WTT were one of the people I spoke to when I decided to pay up. Very helpful but I decided to go with another outfit instead as my case seemed straightforward with little hope on any kind of appeal being succesful so I just wanted someone to deal with the correspondence, which they did.
I'll be talking to the outfit I'm with again to see if this is covered in the work we agreed (what's the betting it isn't?) but will probably end up talking direct to HMRC and would have liked to go into that conversation armed with some recent evidence from someone in the same boat.
If anyone has been issued with surcharges after they've agreed to pay I'd love to hear what happened.

I think you're on the right track. You do need upto date information from your advisor on what HMRC are saying on similar cases before you speak to them. Good luck.

[Beaver Programming]

Thanks - WTT were one of the people I spoke to when I decided to pay up. Very helpful but I decided to go with another outfit instead as my case seemed straightforward with little hope on any kind of appeal being succesful so I just wanted someone to deal with the correspondence, which they did.
I'll be talking to the outfit I'm with again to see if this is covered in the work we agreed (what's the betting it isn't?) but will probably end up talking direct to HMRC and would have liked to go into that conversation armed with some recent evidence from someone in the same boat.
If anyone has been issued with surcharges after they've agreed to pay I'd love to hear what happened.

[Fred Bloggs]

Evening folks
Long time member - even longer member of the Montpelier DTA scheme, but first time poster
Up to a few months ago I had been flip-flopping between head in the sand, ignore it and it might go away and waking up in a sweat sheer panic, neither of which did any good as I finally received APNs a few months ago.
Based on the info posted here, it seemed the game was up so I paid what I could and agreed a Time To Pay agreement with Her Majesty's finest.
That was about a month ago, and I thought that was the end of it....
...until the end of last week when I received SA 'Late Payment Surcharge Notices' - one for each year I was in the scheme. This, I wasn't expecting and I've spent the weekend worried sick about them and only this evening plucked up courage to look here for advice.

I found some which suggested the only thing to do was pay up, then I found this post which filled me with hope, but not too much as I've had hopes dashed so many times before.

I notice this post is several years old, so I wonder if anyone has had recent experience of receiving late payment surcharge notices after agreeing to pay, and what they did with them ?

I think you need proper and upto date advice from a trustworthy professional. The only people I can think of are WTT who can found from Google. The first call is free, I believe. Good luck.

[Beaver Programming]

1. Mine came as a separate letter after interest was already paid.
2. Yes, see my last post. I appealled and HMRC told me the surcharges were applied in error. I've subsequently had this in writing from them too.

Evening folks
Long time member - even longer member of the Montpelier DTA scheme, but first time poster
Up to a few months ago I had been flip-flopping between head in the sand, ignore it and it might go away and waking up in a sweat sheer panic, neither of which did any good as I finally received APNs a few months ago.
Based on the info posted here, it seemed the game was up so I paid what I could and agreed a Time To Pay agreement with Her Majesty's finest.
That was about a month ago, and I thought that was the end of it....
...until the end of last week when I received SA 'Late Payment Surcharge Notices' - one for each year I was in the scheme. This, I wasn't expecting and I've spent the weekend worried sick about them and only this evening plucked up courage to look here for advice.

I found some which suggested the only thing to do was pay up, then I found this post which filled me with hope, but not too much as I've had hopes dashed so many times before.

I notice this post is several years old, so I wonder if anyone has had recent experience of receiving late payment surcharge notices after agreeing to pay, and what they did with them ?