Reply to: This is not tax avoidance, this is just the way it works.

[DonkeyRhubarb]

Sadly the political interference in the judiciary makes that less likely than it should be

Not just political interference.

The Justice System has been hit hard by public spending cuts. The legal aid budget has been slashed. Courts have been closed. Jobs lost, salaries frozen.

The Justice System is funded by taxes.

If you were a Judge hearing a tax avoidance case...

[Intel]

if that decision is true, honest, balanced and legally sound

Sadly the political interference in the judiciary makes that less likely than it should be

[NotAllThere]

Four different threads you have posted the same post on now. All that will do is confuse you even more !!

All deleted now.

[regron]

Hello All,

I have received a tax avoidance letter for FY 2011-12 in the last 2 weeks reg the tax avoidance as I was with AML Loan agreement (I was only with them for an year and moved on), I didn’t even realised it was illeagal.

I have emailed AML reg this and they haven’t come back to me yet on this.

I was go through the forums and I can see there were few people in the same situation as mine in the past, so can you please advise me whats the best option for me to do in this situation and what was the outcome in each of your cases?

Any sort of information is highly appreciated in this regards.

Many Thanks in advance.

Cheers

Four different threads you have posted the same post on now. All that will do is confuse you even more !!

[DotasScandal]

It is not illegal.

Ps: duplicating your post across threads will not yield you more replies.

[webberg]

Ultimately, the views expressed here on both sides of the debate have some power but HMRC is a different beast.

They are not above the law. They have to obey a decision made in Court and if that decision is true, honest, balanced and legally sound, it matters not what they HMRC think.

True, they have in the past lost a case and changed the law. Fine, let them do that here, because it will remove all the prior years.

(I cannot imagine the challenges that would erupt should they lose the case and legislate retrospectively. Even in my nightmares I do not see that scenario).

here, they have no final position. getting a final answer on most cases will be a long and tortuous legal process and eventually enough people wanting to settle on a reasonable argument will carry weight.

If you don't believe that for whatever reason (conspiracy theory to political fix to general uncommercial stubborness), then nothing is going to fix that loss of faith.

If you believe, that HMRC will have to recognise the power of a sensible, technical and logical argument and that if they don't a Court may force them to, then join up and sign on for the long haul.

[DotasScandal]

The concept is still the same. On the one hand you've got the tax collection agency of the state, with unlimited funding, the best lawyers in the business and the ability to ask their masters to change legislation if they don't succeed the first time, and on the other hand you've got a tiny % of the state population with minimal public sympathy because they are relatively well off compared to the average person (or were well off before the state demanded they hand over their cash).

I appreciate the issue may appear like the most important moral, political and legal problem for those caught up in it but the harsh truth is that 99.999% of the general population just don't care. Hence the state can do what it wants with impunity.

I'm not say it's fair, I'm not saying it's right, but I'm just saying that other than on this board and in the relevant groups very few other people care and therein lies the main reason why HMRC will eventually win out.

We do not care about winning the hearts and minds of the general population. So it's completely irrelevant what 99.999% of the general population think.
As for "HMRC will eventually win out"... No they won't.
They only win out when they face no opposition - or opposition that's flaccid because it's subconsciously operating from a self-defeated mindset from the start.

[DaveB]

Not sure about that - the main reason that rates have gone down is that many contractors won't now touch government contracts because of IR35. Since Capita won the contract to administer all contract staff, they have come up with lots of rate reductions for many roles, making government contracts even less attractive. Those contractors then compete for work in the private sector meaning a temporary glut of staff. By the end of the year, rates will go up again, in my opinion, as contractors pull out of the market and go perm or get made bankrupt by HMRC so can't work.

Not necessarily true. I do pretty much 100% Public Sector work and I'm earning more now than I ever have. Starting a new gig with a major department next month and the rate is 13% up on my current one, and thats not paying peanuts. It's about what you do and how you sell yourself.

There has been a lot of scare mongering about IR35 and public sector contracts but the reality is it's no worse than anywhere else. There is some extra paperwork to do at the outset but otherwise you get contracts reviewed, negotiate working practices and take out IR35 insurance like any other contract.

[Intel]

You're comparing apples and oranges.
Big Group and the other groups are not about petitioning anyone or asking permission. They're about pooling resources (financial and intellectual) to conduct concrete actions that, unlike marching with slogans and petitions, HMRC cannot chose to ignore. See NTRT.

The concept is still the same. On the one hand you've got the tax collection agency of the state, with unlimited funding, the best lawyers in the business and the ability to ask their masters to change legislation if they don't succeed the first time, and on the other hand you've got a tiny % of the state population with minimal public sympathy because they are relatively well off compared to the average person (or were well off before the state demanded they hand over their cash).

I appreciate the issue may appear like the most important moral, political and legal problem for those caught up in it but the harsh truth is that 99.999% of the general population just don't care. Hence the state can do what it wants with impunity.

I'm not say it's fair, I'm not saying it's right, but I'm just saying that other than on this board and in the relevant groups very few other people care and therein lies the main reason why HMRC will eventually win out.

[DotasScandal]

Not a big enough group. The government doesn't even bother with most petitions that get 100000 votes and force a debate in parliament. Lip service is the best you get.

If hundreds of thousands of protesters on the streets of London can't change government policy regarding issues of national importance what chance do a few contractors who <public perception> pay less tax and earn way more money than everyone else </public perception> have in a private battle with one of the the biggest and most powerful government departments?

Welcome to the real world where the little man gets shafted.

You're comparing apples and oranges.
Big Group and the other groups are not about petitioning anyone or asking permission. They're about pooling resources (financial and intellectual) to conduct concrete actions that, unlike marching with slogans and petitions, HMRC cannot chose to ignore. See NTRT.

[BrilloPad]

Welcome to the real world where the little man gets shafted.

PS you are right about that!

[BrilloPad]

Not a big enough group. The government doesn't even bother with most petitions that get 100000 votes and force a debate in parliament. Lip service is the best you get.

If hundreds of thousands of protesters on the streets of London can't change government policy regarding issues of national importance what chance do a few contractors who <public perception> pay less tax and earn way more money than everyone else </public perception> have in a private battle with one of the the biggest and most powerful government departments?

Welcome to the real world where the little man gets shafted.

2 million people protested against the Iraq war in 2003. I was in favour of war - but I felt such a large group of voters should be listened to. But it seemed BLiar "listened to God" instead.

NTRT got a subscription and has launched a FTTT. It has enough cash to fight to the bitter end through the courts.

The idea of a big group is not to be touchy feely - though it helps not to be alone. The idea is to go to court the way big companies do.

[Intel]

The only way is for contractors to get themselves together. I have an idea - why doesn't someone form a big group?

NTRT is another great example....

Not a big enough group. The government doesn't even bother with most petitions that get 100000 votes and force a debate in parliament. Lip service is the best you get.

If hundreds of thousands of protesters on the streets of London can't change government policy regarding issues of national importance what chance do a few contractors who <public perception> pay less tax and earn way more money than everyone else </public perception> have in a private battle with one of the the biggest and most powerful government departments?

Welcome to the real world where the little man gets shafted.

[BrilloPad]

Large corporations can afford large teams of lawyers and have massive marketing budgets.

Individual contractors can cut and paste sh*t from google.

I know who I'd get to bend over if I was HMRC.......

Low hanging fruit. Simple as that.

The only way is for contractors to get themselves together. I have an idea - why doesn't someone form a big group?

NTRT is another great example....

[Intel]

Large corporations can afford large teams of lawyers and have massive marketing budgets.

Individual contractors can cut and paste sh*t from google.

I know who I'd get to bend over if I was HMRC.......

Low hanging fruit. Simple as that.