Reply to: Sloping Shoulders at the Beeb

[Sysman]

This is rather interesting:

List of ethnic slurs - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Common or garden words, such as "Spook", have meanings that are not readily apparent.



Well I never knew that.



Stone me, some of those are funny.

"Sheep shagger"

And much much less PC: "Smoked Irish".



Feck me, even the alphabet isn't safe:

ABC & ABCD.

My Dad used Smoked Irish to refer to immigrants from the Indian subcontinent. He'd had a pretty unpleasant time of it serving alongside an Indian regiment in the war, apparently.

[Ticktock]

It's not erudite, it's pithy. Learn English.
And keep digging - and proving my point.

Learn sarcasm. Calling a statement that displays no knowledge behind it an erudite argument might just be considered such.

I wonder if it's an age thing.

Those of us who are old enough to remember the 80s with Paki generally being used as an insult are perhaps more sensitive to the issue than younger folk who struggle to see the problem with the word.

Possibly. I fully understand why it is seen as an insult, and don't use it myself, even to friends who call it themselves.
When I was a newly arrived immigrant here I got mocked for my accent and pronounciation of words, but not for my country / region of origin. My wife does that now, but then she's Welsh so hardly one to talk.

What I said above is that it is another case of a word that has been hijacked to become offensive through its useage as opposed to its original meaning, and there are those who were using the word before it was seen as offensive / racist who still use it and don't seem to understand why anyone would have a problem with that. I think younger people will know its offensive and not use it, while older people may not understand why its offensive.

In Australia you have "Abo" for aboriginals. Even up until the '50s this was an acceptable term, used by both the aboriginals themselves and white Australians. Then for some reason it became a racist term in a fairly short period of time. It would appear that the word became racist once racist people started using it - anyone else who used it was then screwed.

[TheFaQQer]

I wonder if it's an age thing.

Those of us who are old enough to remember the 80s with Paki generally being used as an insult are perhaps more sensitive to the issue than younger folk who struggle to see the problem with the word.

In the 80s, though, we played the Kiwis, the Aussies, the Windies, the Pakis etc. at cricket without any racist connotations.

[mudskipper]

I wonder if it's an age thing.

Those of us who are old enough to remember the 80s with Paki generally being used as an insult are perhaps more sensitive to the issue than younger folk who struggle to see the problem with the word.

[SaltyLevels]

No, you said "It's racist if you intend it to be racist". Again, your intent has nothing to do with it.

It's ok to disagree. I believe if you intend something to be racist, it's racist. Call me old fashioned. But now we're simply going backwards and forwards saying the same stuff.

[sasguru]

Well, that's certainly an erudite argument. Please explain what is offensive about me calling a French guy "Mon ami", or describing a Portuguese guy as "Portugues" (besides my poor pronounciation)?

It's not erudite, it's pithy. Learn English.
And keep digging - and proving my point.

[Ticktock]

Feck me you're thick as 2 short planks.

Well, that's certainly an erudite argument. Please explain what is offensive about me calling a French guy "Mon ami", or describing a Portuguese guy as "Portugues" (besides my poor pronounciation)?

[sasguru]

Wow, it's amazing how easy it is for something to become racist. The link from Zeity include words that translate as "friend" being considered an ethnic slur, presumably because an English speaker is using that word instead of saying "friend" in English.

Even weirder - Polack.



So in short, although the pronounciation is the same as the Polish word for "Polish person" it is an ethnic slur because it is spelled with an extra "c". So is it OK if you don't pronounce the "c"?
Does that mean if a non-native English speaker calls an English man an "Englishmann" then it is an ethnic slur?

Feck me you're thick as 2 short planks.

[Ticktock]

Wow, it's amazing how easy it is for something to become racist. The link from Zeity include words that translate as "friend" being considered an ethnic slur, presumably because an English speaker is using that word instead of saying "friend" in English.

Even weirder - Polack.

It is an Anglicisation of the Polish language word Polak, which can mean a Polish male person or a person of Polish nationality (feminine being Polka), with a neutral connotation. However, the English loanword "Polack" (note the spelling difference which does not appear in Polish) is considered an ethnic slur in the United States and the United Kingdom, and therefore is considered insulting in nearly all modern usages.

So in short, although the pronounciation is the same as the Polish word for "Polish person" it is an ethnic slur because it is spelled with an extra "c". So is it OK if you don't pronounce the "c"?
Does that mean if a non-native English speaker calls an English man an "Englishmann" then it is an ethnic slur?

[Ticktock]

I think you've actually agreed with me: I said just because someone doesn't take offence doesn't mean it isn't offensive, paraphrasing.

If I heard someone calling another person a paki, I would find it offensive.

No, you said "It's racist if you intend it to be racist". Again, your intent has nothing to do with it.

[SaltyLevels]

Sorry to disagree with you, but what you think or believe is irrelevant. Go take a "sensitivity in the workplace" training course that companies inflict on their permies, or read the relevant laws. The fact that your friend doesn't get offended is great (I have similar friends) - but if someone overheard you then they could take offense and make a complaint. Going back to what Zeity said, I was regularly called "the token honky" at a previous ClientCo which had large numbers of Indians working there. I didn't take offense, and one of the guys I got on well with would regularly call himself a Paki - I wouldn't though as if someone overheard then they could make a complaint.

Hence this whole thread. The woman sueing wasn't the one targetted, but found it offensive.

I think you've actually agreed with me: I said just because someone doesn't take offence doesn't mean it isn't offensive, paraphrasing.

If I heard someone calling another person a paki, I would find it offensive.

[Ticktock]

Again, sorry, but I disagree. It's racist if you intend it to be racist. I know a fine chap, who happens to hail from Pakistan who doesn't get offended at all, in fact, he doesn't get offended by anything, anything at all. However, it doesn't stop it being insulting, derogatory or racist if the person has that intent.

I am going to Bradford with him a week Tuesday actually to have a 'proper' Pakistani curry night. But I'm going OT.

Sorry to disagree with you, but what you think or believe is irrelevant. Go take a "sensitivity in the workplace" training course that companies inflict on their permies, or read the relevant laws. The fact that your friend doesn't get offended is great (I have similar friends) - but if someone overheard you then they could take offense and make a complaint. Going back to what Zeity said, I was regularly called "the token honky" at a previous ClientCo which had large numbers of Indians working there. I didn't take offense, and one of the guys I got on well with would regularly call himself a Paki - I wouldn't though as if someone overheard then they could make a complaint.

Hence this whole thread. The woman sueing wasn't the one targetted, but found it offensive.

[SaltyLevels]

In fact it's not racist if "it's meant to be derogatory". It's racist if the person who hears it feels it is derogatory. Intent does not come into play when it comes to cases like this.

Again, sorry, but I disagree. It's racist if you intend it to be racist. I know a fine chap, who happens to hail from Pakistan who doesn't get offended at all, in fact, he doesn't get offended by anything, anything at all. However, it doesn't stop it being insulting, derogatory or racist if the person has that intent.

I am going to Bradford with him a week Tuesday actually to have a 'proper' Pakistani curry night. But I'm going OT.

[Ticktock]

Sorry, I disagree; I think anyone that uses the term 'Paki' doesn't use it for anything other than an intentional slur. Regardless if its historical background, I am talking about the here and now and, imo, it's an intentional slur.

I agree. It's intentional in that they can't be bothered finding out where someone is from (if they want to refer to that), and may indicate that they don't view that person as an individual, just as someone from "over there". The fact is that some people who use it don't mean to be offensive, or understand why it is offensive - which is what you stated. That does not stop it being offensive in itself.

In fact it's not racist if "it's meant to be derogatory". It's racist if the person who hears it feels it is derogatory. Intent does not come into play when it comes to cases like this.

[SaltyLevels]

.....

Sorry, I disagree; I think anyone that uses the term 'Paki' doesn't use it for anything other than an intentional slur. Regardless if its historical background, I am talking about the here and now and, imo, it's an intentional slur.