Reply to: The Times predictable attack on Farage

[doodab]

That sounds like a conspiracy to me.

It often seems like the idiots are conspiring against sanity. They seem to self organise almost like ants.

[d000hg]

This thread proves a theory I've long held to be true:

The lower the IQ, the greater the propensity to believe in conspiracy theories.

That sounds like a conspiracy to me.

[Mich the Tester]

You want to be outside the EU but without the 'same old binary crap in/out'

You want to be like Switzerland say but with a bit of the Schengen Agreement on top?

The only way to be like that is to leave the EU and then negotiate a package of agreements.

No, I want Britain inside a reformed EU and I believe that can be achieved, much like CMD's intentions, and I think it will be easier to achieve that inside the EU than negotiating from outside. Why? Because I deal with people from continental EU countries every day and negotiate with them on business matters, have been doing so for 20 years and I think I have some understanding of how they think. Walking out and then coming back for a new deal just won't wash over here; staying in, supporting initiatives from others like the Dutch, the Germans on some subjects, the Danes, the Swedes and te like who want something similar and gaining their support for British initiatives; that works with continental Europeans much better than leaving in a huff.

As for Nigel Farage negotiating with the EU; forget it. Most influential people over here think he's an idiot and they'll laugh in his face. That doesn't mean I think he's an idiot, I just think he's wrong on this issue. They will, however, take David Cameron seriously, even if you think that's misguided.

[Flashman]

But that's just back to the same old binary crap of in/out. If some countries want to go part of the way or all the way to political union, then let them do that. If others want a sort of EEA on lots of steroids and an EEA on a bit of steroids, let them do that, but lay down some very basic principles that all share, like freedom of movement for goods, services and labour (not the same thing as free movement of benefit seekers).

You want to be outside the EU but without the 'same old binary crap in/out'

You want to be like Switzerland say but with a bit of the Schengen Agreement on top?

The only way to be like that is to leave the EU and then negotiate a package of agreements.

[Mich the Tester]

We need to resurrect the idea of a two-speed-Europe. One speed towards full political union (a supertstate) a fully democratically elected Government of Europe, the other a bit like the EEA on steroids.

20 years ago Britain and France opposed the idea because that would have given Germany too much power.

But that's just back to the same old binary crap of in/out. If some countries want to go part of the way or all the way to political union, then let them do that. If others want a sort of EEA on lots of steroids and an EEA on a bit of steroids, let them do that, but lay down some very basic principles that all share, like freedom of movement for goods, services and labour (not the same thing as free movement of benefit seekers).

[petergriffin]

The EEA itself isn't stupid; it's an attempt to have an effective free trade zone with minimal political buggering about. The stupid bit is the direction the EU has taken, which was never going to be supported by the public in Europe. I say it can be reversed or reformed, some think that's impossible. Actually I think that given political developments in many EU countries, reform is inevitable.

We need to resurrect the idea of a two-speed-Europe. One speed towards full political union (a supertstate) a fully democratically elected Government of Europe, the other a bit like the EEA on steroids.

20 years ago Britain and France opposed the idea because that would have given Germany too much power.

[Mich the Tester]

But the EEA is stupid. In practice you are subject to most of EU economic regulations without having your say.

We said that a million times, you can't compare Britain with Switzerland or Norway. Besides, we have no gold left.

The EEA itself isn't stupid; it's an attempt to have an effective free trade zone with minimal political buggering about. The stupid bit is the direction the EU has taken, which was never going to be supported by the public in Europe. I say it can be reversed or reformed, some think that's impossible. Actually I think that given political developments in many EU countries, reform is inevitable.

[darmstadt]

Quite. If they disagree with how UKIP spend EU money, perhaps some should consider that that is also a criticism of the EU - the unnecessary employment, the excessive pay and perks these people get and the lack of transparency.

How many years is it now that the auditors have failed to approve the EU budget?

Audit 'seriously undermines credibility' of EU spending - Telegraph

Would this be this one:

After months of complex negotiations, the European Parliament finally approved the EU’s budget for 2014-2020 yesterday (19 November). The budget regulation was approved by 537 votes to 126, with 19 abstentions. The accompanying Inter-Institutional Agreement was approved by 557 votes to 118, with 11 abstentions.

Thats actually an article from 2012 and IIRC the budget has actually been approved since around 2006 (I have posted a link to this elsewhere), unless there is a different budget?

[petergriffin]

That's another possible solution; I don't have a preference actually as long as the EU moves toward being more like the EEA.

But the EEA is stupid. In practice you are subject to most of EU economic regulations without having your say.

We said that a million times, you can't compare Britain with Switzerland or Norway. Besides, we have no gold left.

[Mich the Tester]

No, they should abolish the European Commission and the office of the President of Europe instead, two useless and anti democratic institutions.

More power should be given to the European Parliament, but they should halve the number of MEPs.

That's another possible solution; I don't have a preference actually as long as the EU moves toward being more like the EEA.

[petergriffin]

This is where opponents of the EU have a very valid point that is not being addressed sufficiently by the EU parliament or the whole organisation. It's one reason why I personally don't think we need the EU parliament; what we need is more along the lines of the EEA, with some minimal product standards defined to make free trade easier, not harder.

No, they should abolish the European Commission and the office of the President of Europe instead, two useless and anti democratic institutions.

More power should be given to the European Parliament, but they should halve the number of MEPs.

[Mich the Tester]

Indeed. Of course even a trading association must intrude into other areas. Not just product standards IMO but stuff like workplace rights, maximum working hours, minimum pay etc or some countries would just undercut all the others with a sweatshop culture. Lots of other things make sense too like close cooperation on policing, given the international nature of much crime.

Well yes, but aren't these matters that could be negotiated at the level of councils of the responsible ministers?

[Flashman]

For those of you who may be confused by the relationship between the EU, the EEA, EFTA and the Council of Europe here's a diagram.




All very simple really

[xoggoth]

This is where opponents of the EU have a very valid point that is not being addressed sufficiently by the EU parliament or the whole organisation. It's one reason why I personally don't think we need the EU parliament; what we need is more along the lines of the EEA, with some minimal product standards defined to make free trade easier, not harder.

Indeed. Of course even a trading association must intrude into other areas. Not just product standards IMO but stuff like workplace rights, maximum working hours, minimum pay etc or some countries would just undercut all the others with a sweatshop culture. Lots of other things make sense too like close cooperation on policing, given the international nature of much crime.

[Flashman]

This is where opponents of the EU have a very valid point that is not being addressed sufficiently by the EU parliament or the whole organisation. It's one reason why I personally don't think we need the EU parliament; what we need is more along the lines of the EEA, with some minimal product standards defined to make free trade easier, not harder.

The organisation you are looking for already exists. ETFA. About EFTA | 50 years of promoting free trade and economic integration - EFTA

An organisation Britain left in order to join the EU!