Reply to: Something I don't get with the US shutting down n all

[sasguru]

But I'm pretty sure that setting out deliberately to create an underclass and grind it ever deeper into poverty, while garnering support for such actions by promoting hatred of the weak and disadvantaged, for the long-term benefit of already-wealthy institutions and individuals, is not the way to create a land of opportunity.
.

That is such a ludicrous statement on so many levels.
So you reckon the Tories are responsible for the underclass?
There wasn't one before they came in and it's not much larger factors at work causing the existence of one?
Why would the Tories deliberately create a class that would not vote for them?
The 3 consecutive Tory victories of the 80s were a result of doing the opposite, unless you're also claiming the British working class is so stupid as to vote against its interests?

One thing I've noticed on this site is how so many people's logical thinking stops at the coding level.

[NickFitz]

I'm sorry if I misjudged you.
The simplification seems to be coming from yourself with a kind of Tories bad, anything else good vibe.
Perhaps you would let us know what you think economic policy in the UK should be since it's easy to criticise existing policy without explaining alternatives?

Unlike so many on here, I don't claim to be able to offer an unfailing prescription to cure the nation's economic woes on the basis that I once read something in the paper, or heard something down the pub, that seemed to confirm my existing prejudices.

But I'm pretty sure that setting out deliberately to create an underclass and grind it ever deeper into poverty, while garnering support for such actions by promoting hatred of the weak and disadvantaged, for the long-term benefit of already-wealthy institutions and individuals, is not the way to create a land of opportunity.

And before people start (or carry on) with their "Oh, but [Blair|Brown|Whoever] did such-and-such" ripostes: the fact that X once did something bad doesn't mean that Y doing something different is automatically good. There are many different ways to **** things up, and politicians usually manage, between their differing ideologies, to find all of them.

[sasguru]

Becoming one of the global elite.

Keep on with improving your C++, that'll help.

[DimPrawn]

What would you suggest?

Becoming one of the global elite.

[sasguru]

None of the mainstream parties have any will/desire/interest to address the slow slide of the west into economic oblivion at the hands of the global elite.

What would you suggest?

[DimPrawn]

Camoron is cut from the same cloth as Bliar.

I can picture them slapping each other on the back whilst sipping Champagne on some trillionaire's hyperyacht in a few years time.

None of the mainstream parties have any will/desire/interest to address the slow slide of the west into economic oblivion at the hands of the global elite.

[hyperD]

True enough, but I also think your idea that ALL politicians are crooks is wide of the mark.

Agreed. Some like Hoey, Frank Field and Philip Davies appear to have sound values but they're a sole voice in an unstoppable system of carnage.

[scooterscot]

Vote Yes next year instead, that'll spice things up a bit.

Say what it the UK going to call itself after, RUK?

You'll be between Romania & Russia in the next drop down list, quite fitting actually poor at the top wealthy at the bottom.

[sasguru]

It still surprises me today that people still simply bark this political rhetoric with impunity.

There was a poster (Alf W I think) that lurked around and whenever there was a thread about the Tories, used to jump in like a Ben Elton-esque parody and spunked words around like "Fatcher", "grave", "pissing".

But when it came to a post critiquing Liebour,.... nothing.

The disease of partisanship misdirect is a curse amongst us.

True enough, but I also think your idea that ALL politicians are crooks is wide of the mark.

[hyperD]

The simplification seems to be coming from yourself with a kind of Tories bad, anything else good vibe.

It still surprises me today that people still simply bark this political rhetoric with impunity.

There was a poster (Alf W I think) that lurked around and whenever there was a thread about the Tories, used to jump in like a Ben Elton-esque parody and spunked words around like "Fatcher", "grave", "pissing".

But when it came to a post critiquing Liebour,.... nothing.

The disease of partisanship misdirect is a curse amongst us.

[sasguru]

You persist in the belief that you can shoehorn me into some ideological category. I know the world is a confusing place, and it's easier to understand if you reduce everything to a few very, very simple categories; but sadly, such simplification leads to a representation that is insufficient to capture the true complexity of reality.

I'm sorry if I misjudged you.
The simplification seems to be coming from yourself with a kind of Tories bad, anything else good vibe.
Perhaps you would let us know what you think economic policy in the UK should be since it's easy to criticise existing policy without explaining alternatives?

[NickFitz]

Of course any recovery will be tentative given that our major export markets are mired in depression

No doubt you're one of those who would have liked to join the Euro and thus end up in a situation like the PIIGS with 20% (50% youth) unemployment and a depression due to a German policy that makes our so-called "austerity" look like a walk in the park?

You persist in the belief that you can shoehorn me into some ideological category. I know the world is a confusing place, and it's easier to understand if you reduce everything to a few very, very simple categories; but sadly, such simplification leads to a representation that is insufficient to capture the true complexity of reality.

[Runs With Scissors]

It's pronounced New-Cu-Ler.

No it isn't.

[sasguru]

Now, let's see:

• BBC News - British Chambers of Commerce: Recovery gaining momentum
  
  "Unfortunately the recovery is not yet secure," said BCC head John Longworth.
  
  "We have had false dawns in recent years and although this upturn appears to be on stronger ground, we must be aware that complacency could lead to setbacks," the organisation's director general said.
  
• Manufacturing recovery continues despite fall in factory output growth | Business | theguardian.com
  
  However, Hopley said the sector faced headwinds that could restrict its expansion in the coming months...
  
  Alan Clarke, UK economist at Scotia Bank, said: "The latest Markit survey could be a blip in an otherwise upward sloping trend because recoveries are seldom a straight-line affair.
  
• IMF Raises U.K. Growth Forecast - WSJ.com
  
  However, a decline in factory output and an increase in the trade deficit during May that were disclosed earlier Tuesday served as a reminder that the recovery is still ... [hits paywall]

Of course any recovery will be tentative given that our major export markets are mired in depression

No doubt you're one of those who would have liked to join the Euro and thus end up in a situation like the PIIGS with 20% (50% youth) unemployment and a depression due to a German policy that makes our so-called "austerity" look like a walk in the park?

[NickFitz]

That's not what I hear when I talk to people with real businesses as opposed to narrowly focused and biased IT geeks.
You need to think out of your box.
For some non-anecdotal evidence:

BBC News - British Chambers of Commerce: Recovery gaining momentum
Manufacturing recovery continues despite fall in factory output growth | Business | theguardian.com
IMF Raises U.K. Growth Forecast - WSJ.com

Now, let's see:

• BBC News - British Chambers of Commerce: Recovery gaining momentum
  
  "Unfortunately the recovery is not yet secure," said BCC head John Longworth.
  
  "We have had false dawns in recent years and although this upturn appears to be on stronger ground, we must be aware that complacency could lead to setbacks," the organisation's director general said.
  
• Manufacturing recovery continues despite fall in factory output growth | Business | theguardian.com
  
  However, Hopley said the sector faced headwinds that could restrict its expansion in the coming months...
  
  Alan Clarke, UK economist at Scotia Bank, said: "The latest Markit survey could be a blip in an otherwise upward sloping trend because recoveries are seldom a straight-line affair.
  
• IMF Raises U.K. Growth Forecast - WSJ.com
  
  However, a decline in factory output and an increase in the trade deficit during May that were disclosed earlier Tuesday served as a reminder that the recovery is still ... [hits paywall]