Reply to: Recruitment Consultants are parasites

[scooterscot]

If you decide not to set up a company because it might one day only be worth a few billion, you aren't cut out for business

I do it because I get bored otherwise,

[vetran]

can't think why :

Starbucks Losses Hit £30m In Last Tax Year

[d000hg]

If you decide not to set up a company because it might one day only be worth a few billion, you aren't cut out for business

[scooterscot]

Two companies which previously generated profits in the £billions probably count as viable at the setup stage.

After which they decided to do a British leyland.

[d000hg]

Two companies which previously generated profits in the £billions probably count as viable at the setup stage.

[scooterscot]

Why would anyone set up a business that was not commercially viable?

Indeed.

Ask Nokia or RIM -

[scooterscot]

If £2K a month is too much, then how would you price a gig?
Bear in mind a success rate of maybe 1 in 2, or 1 in 3.
And, if you price it down too much, just have a think about the sort of under-achievers you will be working with.

Okay, to become a freelancer you must forget about being about a passive contractor. Rarely are two of my projects priced the same. Remember you're in charge.

When I'm pricing a 'gig' I negotiate. For too many contractors this means 'this is my rate, 45, but I could do it for 39'. That's not negotiation. On this forum you'll have folks commuting ridicules journeys but advertising well it's a better rate than the last gig that was on their front door step.

When talking direct I would alway price one rate for on-site and usually 30-40% lower for off-site. That one move takes out many an agent from the client's sights, so baited they are by a lower budget for many years of experience.

Many of my clients receive a free SoW that often take me at least 40 hours to prepare (I thinking of the minimum monthly 2k I'm flushing down the pan if I were going through an agent at this point). That is me demonstrating I understand or am prepared to digest the problem with a direction of how I would work towards a solution' You may scream 40 dam hours for free? Well that one move separates me from a field of other contractors. Suddenly I'm the only on standing on the podium.

My other moves are more personal to me and my business model. But you're right, I'm very persistent. Never give in.

Networking is a given. However, candidates tend to only network as their current gig approaches an end. The timeline of being on the bench may be several weeks. That's money you're not making. .

I can't speak for others myself however my networking activities never consider my current status. I network every week of the year regardless if I'm 110% flat busy to relaxing on a hammock in the english garden.

If an agency has conflicting agendas, then construct a business model where the agendas are congruent to all three parties; agency, clientco and candidate.
If you can't, then blaming the agency is not a valid response for merely filling a niche. .

I don't blame agencies. Not at all. In fact they are to be congratulated for taking advantage of those that don't act for themselves. I'll probably get slated by every contractor here for such a statement, but the truth is freelancers don't complain, they make the time & effort, and they're persistent.

Congratulations for having direct clients, and especially one that took so long to come to fruition.
However, this may be more a function of your positive attitude, strategic thinking and patience!
(or maybe, simple bloody-mindedness)
Most candidates have a short-term "did I get the gig or not? If not, move on." attitude.

Cheers.

Many don't follow up with thank you emails after interviews (direct to clientco, not agent!)

I would not bother myself either. An e-mail is an awful way of communication sincerity.

Many don't ask if they can approach clientco directly later on.
Many don't send "interesting emails every couple of months.
(eg, "Hi, am currently at my new gig, and they use the same ERP v3.2 that you mentioned in our meeting last time. Hope to build some more experience in it whilst here."
or "these guys at my current gig use a great 3rd party product for their EDI. Thought you might be interested. here's a link" etc)

I'm beginning to think I'm one of the very very very few people who still put pen to paper!!

Overall, I still don't see a valid alternative.
Everyone wants a new way, but aren't willing to put the effort in, and are looking around for someone else to fill the void.
Back to square one with recruiters.

I agree. Effort is the key word. But I suspect if many knew what they were capable of earning without a middle mad that effort might come. It's what drove me to where I am today.

[CoolCat]

I certainly think there is room for agencies that meet some basic standards, such as no bending the rules by demanding the candidate signs away their rights. Stuff like “we can process you personal data outside of the EU” which destroys your rights under the data protection act, or the opting out stuff. There is also room for agencies which are more akin to mini consultancies where they have senior folk who also deliver projects from time to time, so they still understand the realities (and indeed some small consultancies are like this part delivery and part recruitment consultants). There is also room for agencies that understand more than buzz words, and understand that delivering successful projects is the aim not gathering ever more buzz words, and look at candidates with that in mind.

On the employer side it is full of holes too. Being bombarded with CV’s by CV shufflers, full of the latest buzzwords, but often people who have worked on messed up project after another.

Getting the best candidate into a slot is so much hit and miss at the moment its not really good for the candidate or the hiring organisation. Problem is all their HR training doesn’t show them the obvious ways of fixing this.

[darmstadt]

Many don't follow up with thank you emails after interviews (direct to clientco, not agent!)

Er, why? I presume that you thanked the interviewer after the interview and said something like 'hope to hear from you soon.' I think this is more of a permie thing to do

Many don't ask if they can approach clientco directly later on.

Probably because agency contracts are written so that you can't

Many don't send "interesting emails every couple of months.
(eg, "Hi, am currently at my new gig, and they use the same ERP v3.2 that you mentioned in our meeting last time. Hope to build some more experience in it whilst here."
or "these guys at my current gig use a great 3rd party product for their EDI. Thought you might be interested. here's a link" etc)

Er, why? For one thing you maybe in breach of contract at your new place by passing on what could be considered confidential information to a competitor. If you want to keep in touch in an informal way then surely via technical information exchanges (i.e. listservs, forums, conferences, etc.) is much better.

[evilagent]

Why would anyone set up a business that was not commercially viable?

Indeed.

[DodgyAgent]

If £2K a month is too much, then how would you price a gig?
Bear in mind a success rate of maybe 1 in 2, or 1 in 3.
And, if you price it down too much, just have a think about the sort of under-achievers you will be working with.

Networking is a given. However, candidates tend to only network as their current gig approaches an end. The timeline of being on the bench may be several weeks. That's money you're not making.

If an agency has conflicting agendas, then construct a business model where the agendas are congruent to all three parties; agency, clientco and candidate.
If you can't, then blaming the agency is not a valid response for merely filling a niche.

Congratulations for having direct clients, and especially one that took so long to come to fruition.
However, this may be more a function of your positive attitude, strategic thinking and patience!
(or maybe, simple bloody-mindedness)
Most candidates have a short-term "did I get the gig or not? If not, move on." attitude.

Many don't follow up with thank you emails after interviews (direct to clientco, not agent!)
Many don't ask if they can approach clientco directly later on.
Many don't send "interesting emails every couple of months.
(eg, "Hi, am currently at my new gig, and they use the same ERP v3.2 that you mentioned in our meeting last time. Hope to build some more experience in it whilst here."
or "these guys at my current gig use a great 3rd party product for their EDI. Thought you might be interested. here's a link" etc)

Overall, I still don't see a valid alternative.
Everyone wants a new way, but aren't willing to put the effort in, and are looking around for someone else to fill the void.
Back to square one with recruiters.

Why would anyone set up a business that was not commercially viable? In case you are unaware the market has changed dramatically over the past 15 years. Control has been brought "in house" whereby agencies now have to operate under strict rules and pre ordained margins. Unfortunately (for agencies and contractors alike) the free for all scramble for increasing rates and high margins has been brought to a halt by the ready availability of information (contractor CVs) provided by the internet.
The only markets untouched (relatively) by this are niche markets and smaller companies (the latter tend to cotton on quickly)
This change has also provided jobs for medium and low achieving recruitment consultants who can get paid pretty well (better than a basic agency salary but not as good as an on target recruiter would earn) to work "in house" for clients.
This has manifested itself in benefits not for the contractors, nor for the agencies but for the clients and recruitment consultants more attuned to managing process rather than sales excellence.
This is why contractor rates have remained locked for the past 10 years.
The system works pretty well for contractors who just want "journeyman work" but if they ever want to break out and make serious money then they need to create their own demand and find their own markets. The same applies to agencies.

[DodgyAgent]

Very little is likely to change for as long as contractors are happy to give away a percentage of their earning ability. If you're charging an end client directly, say £500 a day, then all is well. If you have a client that will only accept business through the agency and they tell they're only willing to go to £400 a day (20% and that's being kind), my god, they're looking to possibly collect £2k a month from your efforts.

If contractors are willing to give up that much money all because they can't be bothered with a little networking, they fair play to the agents. That's one view. For the sake of balance, my other view is that apathy from the freelancers is only matched by that of HR departments. They believe the only way to recruit is to process CV's and hence farm the activity out when they're swarmed by numbers. They're by far the best people to recruit, it is after all their business. It's such a waste of energy to use a fifth wheel. That extra £2k does not feed the business nor the supplier, it's parasitic, eventually weakening the business and greater economy.




There's no such thing as 'the right people' - The agency has an agenda that is nothing to do with yours or your client's.

If you want to stand out from the crowd you approach the client yourself. The number times I've read 'Graduate applies for 150 jobs not one response'. It turns out said graduate applied for no jobs, but 150 agencies.



Yet I bet those clients that cannot be bothered with the process find themselves with transient environments, projects bogged down by problem after problem and budgets exceeding their targets.

I've two direct clients at the minute, both from first contact to the first invoice took nearly a year. But my what a difference. Highly flexible working conditions, ad-hoc demand, long-term commitment, and project success (because I'm usually managing the project myself!!).

I asked those agency guys among us to count the successful projects you've seen completed or did you leave first before? Be honest...

Let us get one thing straight it is not the contractors money the agent is taking. It is the clients money.

[evilagent]

If £2K a month is too much, then how would you price a gig?
Bear in mind a success rate of maybe 1 in 2, or 1 in 3.
And, if you price it down too much, just have a think about the sort of under-achievers you will be working with.

Networking is a given. However, candidates tend to only network as their current gig approaches an end. The timeline of being on the bench may be several weeks. That's money you're not making.

If an agency has conflicting agendas, then construct a business model where the agendas are congruent to all three parties; agency, clientco and candidate.
If you can't, then blaming the agency is not a valid response for merely filling a niche.

Congratulations for having direct clients, and especially one that took so long to come to fruition.
However, this may be more a function of your positive attitude, strategic thinking and patience!
(or maybe, simple bloody-mindedness)
Most candidates have a short-term "did I get the gig or not? If not, move on." attitude.

Many don't follow up with thank you emails after interviews (direct to clientco, not agent!)
Many don't ask if they can approach clientco directly later on.
Many don't send "interesting emails every couple of months.
(eg, "Hi, am currently at my new gig, and they use the same ERP v3.2 that you mentioned in our meeting last time. Hope to build some more experience in it whilst here."
or "these guys at my current gig use a great 3rd party product for their EDI. Thought you might be interested. here's a link" etc)

Overall, I still don't see a valid alternative.
Everyone wants a new way, but aren't willing to put the effort in, and are looking around for someone else to fill the void.
Back to square one with recruiters.

[scooterscot]

I don't think much will change until the nature of the industry changes, ie, industry knowledge as a cornerstone of the skill-set.

Very little is likely to change for as long as contractors are happy to give away a percentage of their earning ability. If you're charging an end client directly, say £500 a day, then all is well. If you have a client that will only accept business through the agency and they tell they're only willing to go to £400 a day (20% and that's being kind), my god, they're looking to possibly collect £2k a month from your efforts.

If contractors are willing to give up that much money all because they can't be bothered with a little networking, they fair play to the agents. That's one view. For the sake of balance, my other view is that apathy from the freelancers is only matched by that of HR departments. They believe the only way to recruit is to process CV's and hence farm the activity out when they're swarmed by numbers. They're by far the best people to recruit, it is after all their business. It's such a waste of energy to use a fifth wheel. That extra £2k does not feed the business nor the supplier, it's parasitic, eventually weakening the business and greater economy.

But, as candidates, you also have a responsibility to cause change by ensuring you are represented by the right people.

There's no such thing as 'the right people' - The agency has an agenda that is nothing to do with yours or your client's.

If you want to stand out from the crowd you approach the client yourself. The number times I've read 'Graduate applies for 150 jobs not one response'. It turns out said graduate applied for no jobs, but 150 agencies.

Recruiters exist because most companies do not wish to engage in the long-drawn out process of engaging and on-boarding new talent, and out-source this activity.

Yet I bet those clients that cannot be bothered with the process find themselves with transient environments, projects bogged down by problem after problem and budgets exceeding their targets.

I've two direct clients at the minute, both from first contact to the first invoice took nearly a year. But my what a difference. Highly flexible working conditions, ad-hoc demand, long-term commitment, and project success (because I'm usually managing the project myself!!).

I asked those agency guys among us to count the successful projects you've seen completed or did you leave first before? Be honest...

[evilagent]

Recruitment, much like estate agency (sadly), is involved in high-margin activities.
It's about securing a high-value product, and acquiring "dibs".
The rights to represent a client, and to represent a candidate. (or house)

If you look at the adverts for recruiters, you will find, almost exclusively, the skills sought after are primarily sales ability.
Not sector knowledge.
Not X years technical experience.

The industry, therefore, is awash with KPI-obsessed types.

I don't think much will change until the nature of the industry changes, ie, industry knowledge as a cornerstone of the skill-set.

But, as candidates, you also have a responsibility to cause change by ensuring you are represented by the right people.

Recruiters exist because most companies do not wish to engage in the long-drawn out process of engaging and on-boarding new talent, and out-source this activity.

There should be better ways of taking on new people, either as apprentices, grads, experienced permies, or freelancers.
If there is, it is being kept a closely guarded secret, or won't make money for anyone.
Or, the commission-hungry sales-types are winning all the deals.