Reply to: Another reason to cut benefits

[vetran]

Who made a good point?

You need to make sure you compare apples with apples.
Compare London to Singapore, New York, Hong Kong etc... and you'll find the difference overall (not just the actual amount you are paid) is about the same.

Dominic.

And we aren't comparing with other MEDCs its LEDCs all the way baby.

Its a race to the bottom and I don't mean NLYUK stylee.

[Spacecadet]

but he does make a good point, we are still very well paid compared to the rest of the world, changes are coming.

Who made a good point?

You need to make sure you compare apples with apples.
Compare London to Singapore, New York, Hong Kong etc... and you'll find the difference overall (not just the actual amount you are paid) is about the same.

[vetran]

but he does make a good point, we are still very well paid compared to the rest of the world, changes are coming.

[eek]

worst thing about not proof reading is that numerous mistakes are left for people to pick on

FTFY HTH

[Spacecadet]

tl;dr

A bit thing that neither the Daily Mail, nor Guardian readers really think through is that even the most unskilled workshy and stroppy Brit on minimum wage costs more than 85% of the world earn. The only way we can even hope to sustain this is by increased skills, not just harder core C++ gurus, but across the whole work spectrum.

A bit thing that neither the Daily Mail, nor Guardian readers really think through is that even the most unskilled workshy and stroppy Brit on minimum wage costs more than 85% of the world earn. The only way we can even hope to sustain this is by increased skills, not just harder core C++ gurus, but across the whole work spectrum.

worst thing about copy and pasting is that any mistakes in the original are replicated in the copy

[Dominic Connor]

Farmers

One of the interesting inputs to this is farmers own views.

They are unhappy at EU workers being allowed freely into the UK, which is not what you'd expect.

Turns out that Eastern European workers used to be only allowed in to work in designated occupations which included crop picking. Apparently this was true for years before we even joined the EEC as as it was then.

Now that E.Europeans can do any job that someone will pay them to do then the minimum or sub minimum wage of picking fruit, etc doesn't attract. So farmers must pay more for labour which means they can't always buy the latest Range Rover as soon as it comes out.

A problem with trying to get people on benefits to do this work is that (surprise) fields are out in the country and farmers are very averse to even minimum wage pay which means that the cost of transport would be economically stupid.

Also there is a profound difference in the productivity in manual stoop labour of a fit motivated 18 yo from another country and a fat 50 year old brit who has been sent there upon threat of losing benefits, frankly if you tried to get me to keep being over to pick fruit, I'd be in (expensive) hospital in a week.

If you want to spend less on benefits, first you must spend more money on benefit recipients.

Childcare is insanely expensive and bad, often they won't hold the kids after 6PM, some will call child protection if you're not there by 6:15, yes, really. That's even before the fact that you have to somehow get kids from school to the childcare, because local councils are so awful it is politically impossible to use them as places to care for kids whilst their parents work (shock !) after 5:30.

This costs money.

Many benefitters have inadequate education, either no skills or ones that no one will pay for. By making benefits contingent upon attending classes or taking part in remote learning, we could have a more skilled workforce with lower unemployment.,

This also costs money

Also if we are going to pay mothers to be at home, then we should treat them like people we pay and set objectives that have rewards. Across the world the single biggest factor in the educational outcome of a child is the education level of the mother. I estimate that it took something like 150 hours to teach each of my kids their alphabet, to that we add colours, some numeracy, etc. We're not talking here about the way at 8, one of my kids had enough understanding of philosophy to decide that he had no free will, instead we should incentivise with money mothers (and occasional fathers) to prep their kids for school which nearly all are capable of. Where they are not, then the education above can be applied to the parent. Paying (say) £1,000 quid to a parent who ensures their kid knows letters, can count to 20, colours, identify some basic words will seriously improve things.
It is shocking and fixable that many kids turn up barely able to speak and not even toilet trained.

Its harder to deal with the benefitters that everyone affects to hate, the workshy, compulsory education will help that a bit since unless they put some effort in to their education, their money will drop. Some of these wll decide that working a till at Asda is less hassle than being force fed basic Excel skills.

A bit thing that neither the Daily Mail, nor Guardian readers really think through is that even the most unskilled workshy and stroppy Brit on minimum wage costs more than 85% of the world earn. The only way we can even hope to sustain this is by increased skills, not just harder core C++ gurus, but across the whole work spectrum.

A bit thing that neither the Daily Mail, nor Guardian readers really think through is that even the most unskilled workshy and stroppy Brit on minimum wage costs more than 85% of the world earn. The only way we can even hope to sustain this is by increased skills, not just harder core C++ gurus, but across the whole work spectrum.

[eek]

Orange jumpsuits and a ball & chain?

For the unemployed volunteers?

[vetran]

problem is that is what people do when sentenced to community service. How would you go about making that look like something else for the unemployed?

it is an issue. But then it would be no fun if it were easy.

I was all for the Joe Arpio style community service.

[Ticktock]

problem is that is what people do when sentenced to community service. How would you go about making that look like something else for the unemployed?

Orange jumpsuits and a ball & chain?

[eek]

You'd certainly reduce the pool of suspects.

I think it would benefit any parish to get people giving it a lick and spit to be honest. Planting trees, painting benches, clearing little, etc, etc etc

problem is that is what people do when sentenced to community service. How would you go about making that look like something else for the unemployed?

[doodab]

The problem can be easily solved by employing half a dozen well paid girls to pick the fruit naked. There will be a queue of volunteers hoping to have their plums harvested.

FTFY

[Paddy]

how do you work that out?

£6.19 * 40 = £247 a week 3 months a year. Should pay for the wife & kids to live in a shoebox in the south east and eat once a month.

Mate of mine worked out he needed to be on > £8 an hour to be better off in work. He actually is a very hard worker and wanted to work.

The financial side is important as is the work ethic side.

The problem can be easily solved by employing half a dozen well paid girls to pick the fruit naked. There will be a queue of volunteers to help.

[doodab]

I think it would benefit any parish to get people giving it a lick and spit to be honest.

You can't make them work in glory holes, even if they are adapted confession booths.

[Old Hack]

Agreed, there are a lot of projects that wouldn't cost a lot or displace workers.

just getting them out working would remove a lot of the fraud which I suspect is endemic.

You'd certainly reduce the pool of suspects.

I think it would benefit any parish to get people giving it a lick and spit to be honest. Planting trees, painting benches, clearing little, etc, etc etc

[vetran]

I'd like to see welfare claimants work in their local parish on projects likely to enhance their area i.e. clearing scrubland, making the parks better, street cleaning, small DIY things. Things that they could actively benefit from in their local community. You get the bonus of working, and doing something good, which would keep the spirits higher. I'd also opt for a two tier system; #1 Breadline, for those who don't wish to participate in the work, and #2 Higher for those who do.

Agreed, there are a lot of projects that wouldn't cost a lot or displace workers.

just getting them out working would remove a lot of the fraud which I suspect is endemic.