Reply to: Realistic rates

[cojak]

it's less a matter of luck and more a matter of supply and demand. If you crack that then your rates will be consistantly high.

DaveB is right.

[XLMonkey]

Sorry to hear that! No trace left just a copy I presume.

As to the point: this thread has made it itself, contracting can pay but only if you're fortunate to live close enough to a constant supply of work and secondly if you're lucky on the rate 'cos most don't seem to rationalise the rate they need to make it worthwhile. Otherwise, it's a lifestyle decision.

Agree that being close to a viable market is important (kind of obvious, isn't it?), but don't agree that getting the right rate is a matter of luck. To get the right rate you need to have the right attitude to networking, negotiating and knowing your own worth. That ain't luck.

[ratewhore]

It also depeands on the line of work you are in. .Net seems to be the current developement Gravy Train. Bog standard hell desk and hardware support is crap, as it is in the permie world. DBA work, especially oracle, seems to be steady, if unexciting. Niche areas, as always, command a premium. Be good at someting not a lot of other people are good at and you reap the benefits.

Personally I'm in security, risk management and governance and the phone hardly stops ringing

Seconded DaveB. Theres gold in them thar security mountains...

[DaveB]

Sorry to hear that! No trace left just a copy I presume.

As to the point: this thread has made it itself, contracting can pay but only if you're fortunate to live close enough to a constant supply of work and secondly if you're lucky on the rate 'cos most don't seem to rationalise the rate they need to make it worthwhile. Otherwise, it's a lifestyle decision.

It also depeands on the line of work you are in. .Net seems to be the current developement Gravy Train. Bog standard hell desk and hardware support is crap, as it is in the permie world. DBA work, especially oracle, seems to be steady, if unexciting. Niche areas, as always, command a premium. Be good at someting not a lot of other people are good at and you reap the benefits.

Personally I'm in security, risk management and governance and the phone hardly stops ringing

[HarryPearce]

In memoriam

Milan died in a tragic photocopying accident.

Anyways, what point are you trying to make Mr Pearce?

Stay permie, it's much better, more money and great benefits.

Let the idiots go contracting. Fools.

Sorry to hear that! No trace left just a copy I presume.

As to the point: this thread has made it itself, contracting can pay but only if you're fortunate to live close enough to a constant supply of work and secondly if you're lucky on the rate 'cos most don't seem to rationalise the rate they need to make it worthwhile. Otherwise, it's a lifestyle decision.

[snaw]

I did for nigh on eight years, yourself? When I started rates were much higher and it made straightforward sense. From the millenium bug period rates fell as did the number of available contracts.

As of a few months ago raverage ates in London crept past pre-boom highs. And there are no shortage of contracts either.

[DimPrawn]

Milan died in a tragic photocopying accident.

Anyways, what point are you trying to make Mr Pearce?

Stay permie, it's much better, more money and great benefits.

Let the idiots go contracting. Fools.

[Francko]

You may gross twice a permie salary, but what if your utilisation drops, and what about training?

Even worse some people are doing it for the "intangible benefits".

[HarryPearce]

Yahoo!

Sorry, that's got to be one of the most condescending things I've seen posted on this board. IMO almost every contractor I know is very switched onto 'doing their sums' cause when it comes to the crunch most of us are doing it for the cold hard cash. Lifestyle suits as well it's true, but money is the driving factor for most.

I gross close to double what I could as a permie, and that's London rates for both catagories. I could earn not too far off what I get in now if I went back to Scotland, but I'd be in for a drastic pay cut if I went permie there.

Here's a thought - maybe you should go out and give it a go, rather than lecturing those of us with the nads to go actually do it.

I did for nigh on eight years, yourself? When I started rates were much higher and it made straightforward sense. From the millenium bug period rates fell as did the number of available contracts.

The lack of very few intelligent estimates of what an hourly rate should be, or the means by which a rational person should arrive at the decision to go freelance seem to back up my assertion that very few do their sums! How many contractors ever went through a business plan with their bank manager I wonder? You may gross twice a permie salary, but what if your utilisation drops, and what about training? You might earn well now but if you don't invest for the future there will be no future.

Furthermore, don't forget there are other hiddden costs. When I was contracting my wife had to take on full care for the children, with minimal support out of office hours. That was hard with no immediate support network. In a sense it's not disimilar from military deployment (though safer and the military have my utmost respect) but without any support mechanism at either end for the wife or for the deployed husband (reverse the sexes as you wish!).

p.s What's happened to Milanbenes?

[snaw]

If I could find such a contract now I would leave immediately.

Plenty out there - what you also have to realise is the advertised rate is almost always negoitiable upwards.

As a wise old contractor once said to me - you get paid what you can get, not what you're worth ...

[Francko]

I gross close to double what I could as a permie

If I could find such a contract now I would leave immediately.

[snaw]

This thread has gone just as I expected.

Most contractors don't do their sums before going freelance, and then wonder why the likes of Logica charge what seem exorbitant daily fees for their 'contract consultants'.

Those who do seem to do well, or so they claim, because they have low expenses and live near to work are generally in or near to London. But they seem to forget that London's living costs are sky high compared to elsewhere in the United Kingdom. In general IT seems to concentrate in those areas of the country whre living costs are well above average, London, Cambridge, Oxford etc. If you factor in your living costs for living next to the shop then I suspect the £2000 saving mainly disappears after taking into account an 80% utilisation figure, NI and PAYE that will remove 50% or more of that amount.

Sorry, that's got to be one of the most condescending things I've seen posted on this board. IMO almost every contractor I know is very switched onto 'doing their sums' cause when it comes to the crunch most of us are doing it for the cold hard cash. Lifestyle suits as well it's true, but money is the driving factor for most.

I gross close to double what I could as a permie, and that's London rates for both catagories. I could earn not too far off what I get in now if I went back to Scotland, but I'd be in for a drastic pay cut if I went permie there.

Here's a thought - maybe you should go out and give it a go, rather than lecturing those of us with the nads to go actually do it.

[Francko]

Basically contracting is a money making opportunity unless you get into a cosy permie position. Someone I work with who is now contracting was on ~65K as a techie non-management permie in London. My last permie job 8 years ago was £32K pa in an expensive area, and salaries have not gone up much since then for various reasons.

Finally someone with some open windows in the brain. :-)

That's all I am saying. There are good techie non-management permie jobs in London which pay 70-80k and in some cases even more. Yes, as a contractor you can make 100k and more but you must admit that a 3-year contract for 80k a year is not so bad and you don't have necessarily to be subjected to the typical permie lifestyle. Surely, if the best you can find is a 35k permie jobs then going contracting is the inevitable choice.

[Fungus]

The main motivation is still money, at least in my case. I earn far more than I did as a permie, even taking into account extra expenses incurred. But, I could go permie at my current client, and I would probably be on a much higher salary than I used to get as a permie. I am staying as a contractor as I don't want to stay here.

Basically contracting is a money making opportunity unless you get into a cosy permie position. Someone I work with who is now contracting was on ~65K as a techie non-management permie in London. My last permie job 8 years ago was £32K pa in an expensive area, and salaries have not gone up much since then for various reasons.

[HarryPearce]

Costs and benefits

Mainly that there aren't any!

This thread has gone just as I expected.

Most contractors don't do their sums before going freelance, and then wonder why the likes of Logica charge what seem exorbitant daily fees for their 'contract consultants'.

Those who do seem to do well, or so they claim, because they have low expenses and live near to work are generally in or near to London. But they seem to forget that London's living costs are sky high compared to elsewhere in the United Kingdom. In general IT seems to concentrate in those areas of the country whre living costs are well above average, London, Cambridge, Oxford etc. If you factor in your living costs for living next to the shop then I suspect the £2000 saving mainly disappears after taking into account an 80% utilisation figure, NI and PAYE that will remove 50% or more of that amount.

The main driver used to be money a few years ago when rates were higher. Now it seems most are in it for the 'lifestyle', but the same types still hang out on CUK. It seems more likely that contracting attracts those who don't want to be tied down or in to a career track which takes them away from the coal face. Money may not be so important.

Now how about another thread: from the wrtings of EWD "Programming is one of the most difficult branches of applied mathematics; the poorer mathematicians had better remain pure mathematicians"

IT workers in general are not up the job, unless we redefine IT as the equivalent of a garage mechanic to Alex Issigonis or Enzo Ferrari.