Reply to: Bigot of the Year

[Incognito]

I wonder if anyone is old enough to remember the RC church reaction to the liberalisation of divorce in the U.K?

I'm too young for that, I'd hazard a guess though it was the old fire and brimstone type stuff, everyone going to hell and all that? In Scotland, it really is the RC church that is the most vocal, I still believe the CoS has its head up it's arris in terms of what they believe, but it seems a lot more liberal organisation as a whole. Don't get me wrong though, there are some right crank pots in amongst it as well.

[original PM]

I believe that your sexual orientation is very much genetically based, so by 16 you should know where you stand.

How about if we rephrased your statement like this, would you think this is a sensible position to take ?

In my daughter's class, two boys said they "liked girls" in the last week of their last year at the school. They were 16. To me that's crazy. At that age you barely know who you are.

hmm males 'feeling urges' for females is linked to a predetermined urge to procreate.

This is different from having sex for pleasure.

Maybe we should split it in schools

1) Procreation education - purely biological in terms of 'This is where babies come from'

2) Sexual Education - what people do to get their rocks of and the longer term relationships which can stem from that.

This should avoid any confusion.....

[Toastiness]

In my daughter's class, two boys "came out" in the last week of their last year at the school. They were 16. To me that's crazy. At that age you barely know who you are.

I believe that your sexual orientation is very much genetically based, so by 16 you should know where you stand.

How about if we rephrased your statement like this, would you think this is a sensible position to take ?

In my daughter's class, two boys said they "liked girls" in the last week of their last year at the school. They were 16. To me that's crazy. At that age you barely know who you are.

[speling bee]

A marriage is a legal concept, not a religious one. The church simply sanctifies your marriage in a religious ceremony, but form a legal point of view they register it the same way as a registrar. I'm not religious, should the church be able to say I can't get married? No, however they can refuse to sanctify my marriage if they wish. What's the difference to what's being proposed?

Marriage is a personal and social contract which existed before the church, so the church should not claim any special privileges in this area. I am very happy for churches to decide whose marriages they wish to officiate over - the RC church has no obligation to marry divorcees. However, they should keep their noses out of marriages which take place outside the church. If the state was attempting to legislate to insist on church weddings or baptisms for gay couples and their children, then tere would be cause for all of us who believe in religious freedom to protest.

I wonder if anyone is old enough to remember the RC church reaction to the liberalisation of divorce in the U.K?

[Incognito]

+1

agree, I think that they feel they have tochallenge the church so they appear equal instead of revelling in their rarity

A marriage is a legal concept, not a religious one. The church simply sanctifies your marriage in a religious ceremony, but form a legal point of view they register it the same way as a registrar. I'm not religious, should the church be able to say I can't get married? No, however they can refuse to sanctify my marriage if they wish. What's the difference to what's being proposed?

[vetran]

I don't have a problem with them although, for possibly irrational reasons, I'd prefer it if they avoided the word "marriage" and stuck with "partnership".

+1

agree, I think that they feel they have tochallenge the church so they appear equal instead of revelling in their rarity

[NotAllThere]

Most kids have experimented with sex to some degree by the time they are 16 and probably have a fair idea of who they fancy and who they don't.

This is not the case outside of the UK.

[jmo21]

I suppose that's where the prejudice does begin to come out. I have no problem with homosexuals, but I don't want my child to be one. Am I prejudiced then?

depends on the reason why, and what you would do if your child is gay.

[mudskipper]

In my daughter's class, two boys "came out" in the last week of their last year at the school. They were 16. To me that's crazy. At that age you barely know who you are. The gay people I know didn't come to a realisation until a few years beyond that.

Most kids have experimented with sex to some degree by the time they are 16 and probably have a fair idea of who they fancy and who they don't.

[NotAllThere]

In my daughter's class, two boys "came out" in the last week of their last year at the school. They were 16. To me that's crazy. At that age you barely know who you are. The gay people I know didn't come to a realisation until a few years beyond that.

I read recently that the Baptist church was proposing a neat solution to the gay marriage thing for those denominations that don't wish to marry homosexuals. Do what they do in some European countries. Everyone gets married legally in the registry office. If you want a church wedding after that - knock yourself out.

I do find it amusing that attitudes that were the norm 30 years ago are now beyond the pale. Societical morals are not fixed; they change over time. In 30 years time, Britain may be an Islamic nation under sharia law, with homosexuality re-criminalised, the majority of society will consider this right and proper, and anyone who doesn't hold the attitudes of this cardinal will be considered a dangerously subversive pinko liberal, in favour of pederasty.

[mudskipper]

I suppose that's where the prejudice does begin to come out. I have no problem with homosexuals, but I don't want my child to be one. Am I prejudiced then?

Like most parents, I don't want my son to be "encouraged" by a well meaning teacher to wonder whether he's gay if he isn't. Your sexuality isn't something you choose - it shouldn't be "Should I take French or German?", "Should I sleep with girls or boys?"

Regardless of how one feels about homosexuality, experimenting with gay sex (as a boy) can cause physical harm as well as risk of AIDS.

But I do want my child to know that if he is gay, that's OK and he's not abnormal. I can't pretend I wouldn't be shocked and probably disappointed, but I think I'd get over that. I'd think if your child is gay, you probably suspect it before they need to tell you, so perhaps less of a shock?

[EternalOptimist]

Now that's the nail on the head. My other half is a primary teacher, her colleague in year 6 is gay. He teaches the boys sex ed whilst my OH teaches the girls. Kids at that age are influenced by their surroundings. Are they going to be curious about homosexuality if they're broaching it at 10 years old?

I suppose that's where the prejudice does begin to come out. I have no problem with homosexuals, but I don't want my child to be one. Am I prejudiced then?

In my opinion, you are not prejudiced.

There has been a flurry of posts on CUK over the last couple of months(including this one) that have all touched on a common theme. Values

I was talking about a muslim refugee from Somalia who I worked with, who I believe is a fantastic bloke.
Then there is the Christian English guy who broke into my car two weeks ago who I would happily feed to the pigs.

I have more in common with the first guy, than I do with the second

none of this is about colour, nationality, race, religion or sexuality. it's all about values.

and who do you pass your values onto, if not your kids ? thats not prejudice.

[Incognito]

absolutely.
The problem with controversial subjects is that the teachers are rarely neutral (understandably so) and that bias can be manifested as indoctrination.

Now that's the nail on the head. My other half is a primary teacher, her colleague in year 6 is gay. He teaches the boys sex ed whilst my OH teaches the girls. Kids at that age are influenced by their surroundings. Are they going to be curious about homosexuality if they're broaching it at 10 years old?

I suppose that's where the prejudice does begin to come out. I have no problem with homosexuals, but I don't want my child to be one. Am I prejudiced then?

[EternalOptimist]

How do you imagine sex education classes work? I've no idea - genuine question. I imagine it's more a discussion Q&A session than teacher drawing diagrams of "how to do it" on the blackboard. What if a kid asks about gay sex? Would you want the teacher to refuse to answer?

no idea how they deal with difficult questions. my guess is that they have a supply of stock answers to difficult questions. but thats just a guess.

my objection is more to do with it being part of the curriculem. i.e. to being a set lesson

I have the same objection to teaching many subjects, most of which are of great interest to me as an adult.


Let me put it another way.
You dont get many christians coming out of the state scools in Pakistan.
You dont get many moslems coming out of the state schools in Israel.

what gets taught to kids does matter in how they are formed. right or wrong

[speling bee]

yet you would insist that my kids be taught something, simply because you think its ok to teach your kids that something.

interesting

You have every right to withdraw your kids from lessons so I in no way insist.