Reply to: Gary Mckinnon will NOT be extradited

[MyUserName]

I have aspergers syndrome myself and so does my daughter.

It seems to be mainly a set of character traits which, when added together, cross a boundry which someone somewhere has set.

My wife thinks some things I do are truely bizarre but I cannot understand why she does not do it, I sometimes find her very frustrating when we have arranged to do things or be places and she is not ready despite knowing the timescales well in advance.

My daughter likes to know everything that is going to happen that day and will flip her lid if things change and she is not warned. She goes beserk if you brush her hair - I am 15 stone and can squat over my bodyweight without difficulty for 3 sets of 8 reps and I still struggle to control my 3 year old when she is having her hair brushed etc.

On the other hand her memory is amazing and she remembers things from literally years ago with complete clarity.

However it seems to be that aspergers to autism is the same as tall to giant. He would have to be pretty far along the spectrum before I think it should be taken into account. I mean if he understands what he was doing is wrong now then he could probably understand before he did it!

[doomage]

But what is autism?

From our experience, the diagnosis of autistic spectrum disorder for young children is based on 3 factors.

1) Developmental delay in language. This can range from an inability to verbalise commands to not developing the skill of 'pointing with your eyes' (at some point young children learn to look you in the eye, then look at the thing they want, then back again). At 36 months our son could not even say mummy or daddy.

2) Developmental delay in social skills. This isn't just 'dealing' with people, it also involves issues with imaginative play and aspects like being able to filter out single voices in a noisy room (a typical skill we take for granted).

3) "Stimming", or self stimulatory behaviour. This is where you see classic nodding of heads, or watching flickering lights, or any repetitive activity where the autistic child withdraws from the world around them. Our son used to ride his scooter and you'd see his eyes look to the side at the walls rushing past; or he'd stand as close as possible to a playground roundabout as the other kids whizzed around on it.

So in fact autism is a spectrum with 3 dimensions.

The diagnosis can be fairly subjective, especially in adults. People mistake social ineptitude for autism. Also there are treatments and therapies which can alleviate and cure some of the problems, although it is considered a disability by the establishment (i.e. no cure).

[BrilloPad]

He does not have actual autism though, only Aspergers syndrome which is quite mild on the spectrum.

But what is autism? I have 2 autistic kids and I am not totally sure. I know there are 3 broad spectrums. All cases seem to be different - they seem to see the world differently from "normal" people (whatever that means).

I do remember one quote from an American magazine. "Autism is War". That sums it up for me. We have to plan our entire fooking lives round these 2 kids who want to know what is going to happen next and want total consistency in their lives. We know the younger child hates parties so we invited round 2 kids for his 5th birthday party. He knows both fairly well. He spent the entire time telling them to go home.

[BrilloPad]

I understand that, but surely the family must have thought putting an autistic man through 10 years of stress and worry isn't, in the long term, going to be good for him.

I just think it would have been better for him in the long term.

I am also not too sure I can subscribe to the school of thought that he was just curious. Peter Townsend used curious for his research, and it's a defence used all the time to hide all manner of ills.

I don't have experience of Autism though, but I just think they, the parents, and his PR machine, have done the lad more damage than good.

I don't think having experience of autism is relevant. Every case is different. But you are right - he has alot of problems which have been made alot worse. And I expect it to take years for him to recover.

I don't think anyone realized it would go on for 10 years. If he had broken into Chinese computers we would have told China to fook off. But the way the UK does everything the Americans wants makes me sick.

And America has to take some share of the blame for leaving their doors open. And for using him as a political football - saying he should fry is not nice.

I quite take the Pete Townsend point though. And I would not want what Gary did to be used as a carte blance for hackers. Even old ones!

[MyUserName]

He does not have actual autism though, only Aspergers syndrome which is quite mild on the spectrum.

[Old Hack]

I thought that too. But autistic people don't see things the way that you see them.

I understand that, but surely the family must have thought putting an autistic man through 10 years of stress and worry isn't, in the long term, going to be good for him.

I just think it would have been better for him in the long term.

I am also not too sure I can subscribe to the school of thought that he was just curious. Peter Townsend used curious for his research, and it's a defence used all the time to hide all manner of ills.

I don't have experience of Autism though, but I just think they, the parents, and his PR machine, have done the lad more damage than good.

[BrilloPad]

Theresa May stops extradition of Gary Mckinnon using thing she wants to repeal

[BrilloPad]

I read last night, that this would have been over by 2005/6 if he'd have just accepted it all, and that the PR machine, and his family, have probably caused him more long term damage than the short sharp 3 years in a uk open prison would have done.

Strange decision.

I thought that too. But autistic people don't see things the way that you see them.

[doomage]

Ah OK . Subsitute 'rocket propelled grenade' for rock then. Or use a missile of your choice.
I started the crime here, but the damage was done there. Same question - where do I get tried?

In this case there would probably be no trial.



And you are already being watched.

[BrilloPad]

Man charged with kidnap of British journalist in Syria | UK news | The Guardian

I do hope that Shajul Islam will only be tried in Syria.

[Old Hack]

If our laws forbid such acts, then he should have been prosecuted under our laws. The Americans would have a point if he'd hacked in from international waters, or from a country with no laws against hacking, but (correct me if I'm wrong) British hacking laws don't only apply to people hacking into British computers.

What if you didn't know the physical location of a computer when you hacked it? What if you hacked into a distributed system like Google? It's all a bit ridiculous.

But he didn't do anything here, he broke no laws here. He used the internet to hack into 5 american departments computers, located in America. He's admitted it, he's also admitted causing damage, the Americans even offered to let him serve his sentence here. He's actually bang to rights.

If he'd have broken into UK computers, he'd have been tried here. If he'd have broken into UK computers, then US computers, he'd have been tried here. But he didn't, he broke into US computers.

What we have witnessed here, is that the Americans have said, ah, let him go. I am sure we'd been shafted elsewhere, possibly over the arabs being deported the other day, for the lad's just plain guilty, and he's admitted it. I can't see the Government saying ah, poor lamb's going to top himself if we send him over, let's be nice to him. Imagine everyone from now on when they are threatened with deportation.

I read last night, that this would have been over by 2005/6 if he'd have just accepted it all, and that the PR machine, and his family, have probably caused him more long term damage than the short sharp 3 years in a uk open prison would have done.

Strange decision.

[Old Hack]

Ah OK . Subsitute 'rocket propelled grenade' for rock then. Or use a missile of your choice.
I started the crime here, but the damage was done there. Same question - where do I get tried?

You get shot as soon as you pick up the Rocket Propelled Grenade I would imagine.

There would be collateral UK damage, so the precedence of law states you'd be tried here, then extradited to be tried there.

Bets of both worlds for you there.

[BrilloPad]

Obviously only governments can know things about you without your consent.

And anyone who picks up the data after they leave it on the train.

The government knows way too much about people already.

[Gentile]

Either their security was utterly pathetic or he is a very able chap. I wouldn't have a clue how to do that, anyone here have any ideas?

Maybe we could employ him, or somebody with similar abilities, to act for the public and find out some of the things those bastards upstairs don't want us to know, about the lies of Bliar and the Iraq war or what was in those interfering letters by the Prince of Daftness perhaps. Cromwell had the right idea on that one.

IIRC it was the former: their security was pathetic. He simply used social engineering (e.g. calling up support lines and simply asking for information that should have been treated as secure but the recipient of the call treated as innocuous, such as VPN details / landline numbers that could be used to access their physical network). He then simply used the default admin usernames and passwords (which hadn't been changed) to gain access. Not high tech at all, just based on basic human failings and minimal research.

[xoggoth]

Either their security was utterly pathetic or he is a very able chap. I wouldn't have a clue how to do that, anyone here have any ideas?

Maybe we could employ him, or somebody with similar abilities, to act for the public and find out some of the things those bastards upstairs don't want us to know, about the lies of Bliar and the Iraq war or what was in those interfering letters by the Prince of Daftness perhaps. Cromwell had the right idea on that one.