Reply to: Strategies for working with Off-shore testers?

[Mich the Tester]

Well, I'm in a meeting next week with the Testing Manager to see how we can improve the situation, so I'll let you know how it goes.

In the meantime I've found this Explaining Testing to Them - James Bach - Satisfice, Inc.

(That really is a great website Mitch ).

Warning; Bach's stuff is controversial. He's right, but he's quite a combative character.

[cojak]

Well, I'm in a meeting next week with the Testing Manager to see how we can improve the situation, so I'll let you know how it goes.

In the meantime I've found this Explaining Testing to Them - James Bach - Satisfice, Inc.

(That really is a great website Mitch ).

[mudskipper]

Wrote a long rant and deleted it, as I realised it contained nothing that could be described as advice. Truth is, having been through it, I haven't a clue what I could do differently next time.

[darrenb]

Which means spending more time and money on design that it would have cost to just code and test on location. Why do people keep falling for this offshoring con?

It's referred to as 'ideology'. Means that nobody believes it, but everybody pretends to believe it, just in case everybody else who pretends to believe it actually does believe it.

[amcdonald]

Nuke them from space it's the only way to be sure

[minestrone]

I have done several trips to "help" some off-shore vendors.

A lot depends on the managers.

I mean the team manager and the managers of other teams around them.

The strongest managers will transfer under performing members to other teams or when they are under pressure they will borrow staff.

The team member will be instructed to send a mail to their client asking a question and say something about waiting for a reply. The will be on loan until you reply in full. If the stronger manager still needs them, repeat.

One manager told us about the problem in private, we had to invent some security issue that required the section of the office that the team were working in, to be screened off with a security door that could only be accessed by a team card. Just to stop other managers stealing our staff.

I am not saying this is your issue, but most of the time things are not what they seam.

Try to make friends with at least one member of the team, and try to get the back-story on what’s really going on.

It seems to be a popular story that offshore resources go missing, sometimes for days, unless you are on top of them all the time. I have long suspected that offshore workers spend much of their time not working on the stuff you set them.

[Mich the Tester]

Nope, within the EU.

Oh dear. Ask them what their approach to testing is; what methodology. If they say anything along the lines of TMap, ISTQB, TMM certified, Testframe, Risk and Requirements Based Testing, then you're in for a tulipty project on the downside and lots of invoicing on the upside. Ask them to tell you what 'Exploratory Testing' means to them; if they say something like 'oh that's informal monkey testing' or something like that, they don't have a clue. You can do three things;

1; try and change their approach or get your clientco to change the testing company. This might work if you know A LOT about testing and can give the arguments needed.
2; Grin and bear it, but let them stuff it all up and prove that offshore testing and all that waterfall bollocks just doesn't work. Testing is a craft, just like programming; craftspeople (testers and programmers and DBAs and so on) should be working together closely, preferably in the same room, and to be really productive, sitting next to each other working together.
3; tell your clientco to speak to me; I'll charge them a truckload of money but I'll set them up with a test team that works.

[cojak]

Is this 'offshore' team located in a country with about one billion citizens working at 'CMM level 5'?

Nope, within the EU.

[cojak]

Ah yes, the procedural school of quality anal cysts. They're a pain in the arse and I can't bring myself to call them 'testers'.

You could tell them to join the 21st century and learn about context driven testing, exploratory testing, session based test management and so on. On the other hand, you can grin and bear it; I wouldn't want you to encourage them to move on to modern testing approaches as that would be creating extra competition for me.

But if you want to know more about how to test, as opposed to how to tick boxes, start here;
James Bach - Satisfice, Inc.
and here;
Context Driven Testing

I think what they're actually doing is more akin to this;
http://www.satisfice.com/presentations/fake.pdf

Ta Mich, really appreciate this.

[Mich the Tester]

Is this 'offshore' team located in a country with about one billion citizens working at 'CMM level 5'?

[alreadypacked]

I have done several trips to "help" some off-shore vendors.

A lot depends on the managers.

I mean the team manager and the managers of other teams around them.

The strongest managers will transfer under performing members to other teams or when they are under pressure they will borrow staff.

The team member will be instructed to send a mail to their client asking a question and say something about waiting for a reply. The will be on loan until you reply in full. If the stronger manager still needs them, repeat.

One manager told us about the problem in private, we had to invent some security issue that required the section of the office that the team were working in, to be screened off with a security door that could only be accessed by a team card. Just to stop other managers stealing our staff.

I am not saying this is your issue, but most of the time things are not what they seam.

Try to make friends with at least one member of the team, and try to get the back-story on what’s really going on.

[northernladuk]

You could of course use your right to substitution if you are not cut out for the role

[Mich the Tester]

Ah, the penny is beginning to drop.

I've not had this conversation with anyone yet. I thought that they were doing a bit of both but it's becoming painfully obvious from their emails that they seem to be wanting scripts only. So know I guess I need to find out exactly how they want this presented (Hear that? That's the shattering of Agile hopes against the cold light of day, that is...).

I feel a blog post coming up...

Ah yes, the procedural school of quality anal cysts. They're a pain in the arse and I can't bring myself to call them 'testers'.

You could tell them to join the 21st century and learn about context driven testing, exploratory testing, session based test management and so on. On the other hand, you can grin and bear it; I wouldn't want you to encourage them to move on to modern testing approaches as that would be creating extra competition for me.

But if you want to know more about how to test, as opposed to how to tick boxes, start here;
http://www.satisfice.com/
and here;
http://context-driven-testing.com/

I think what they're actually doing is more akin to this;
http://www.satisfice.com/presentations/fake.pdf

[cojak]

Need more information. What approach to testing are they using? Scripted or exploratory or both? Are they insisting on having everything documented before they test? If so, I'm sure AtW can recommend a machine gun.

Ah, the penny is beginning to drop.

I've not had this conversation with anyone yet. I thought that they were doing a bit of both but it's becoming painfully obvious from their emails that they seem to be wanting scripts only. So know I guess I need to find out exactly how they want this presented (Hear that? That's the shattering of Agile hopes against the cold light of day, that is...).

I feel a blog post coming up...

[BrilloPad]

Now for the purposes of this thread I'm assuming I'm the one at fault here.

Don't put yourself down. Let us do it for you....