Reply to: Reforming Employment Agencies?

[DodgyAgent]

Android, I think it's a useful suggestion. Don't let yourself be put off by all the negative posts, because people here are not really as dimwitted as they might first appear.

No they are dimmer than that

[EternalOptimist]

Android, I think it's a useful suggestion. Don't let yourself be put off by all the negative posts, because people here are not really as dimwitted as they might first appear.

That is possibly one of THE most insulting comments I have ever has the misfortune to read on this site.
I definately as dimwitted as I first appear

[AtW]

people here are not really as dimwitted as they might first appear.

That's true.

[darrenb]

Android, I think it's a useful suggestion. Don't let yourself be put off by all the negative posts, because people here are not really as dimwitted as they might first appear.

[doomage]

Mercenaries do not form armies unless you pay them. No matter what the cause.

Except maybe a direct threat like BN66.

So I'd say you were pissing into the wind here, except that you are digging a big whole for yourself at the same time.

[Android]

How about mentioning at the interview that the job sounds really interesting and you are keen to start, but that £9/hour seems a bit low.

That was a random advertised job used as an example. Sadly I have two very hard working guys at the moment assigned to me for a refresh project who are getting a fraction less than that, and they are about 5/6 weeks behind on their first pay cheque. They are struggling but trapped until they get fully paid. Not nice.

Their agency is a new upstart bidding on price alone at the cut throat business end.

[Sands of Time]

The Client may judge that he requires a little more skill in one direction so any two contractors working together doing the same role may not be equally productive in that area of expertise, so the rate may be slightly different, so what?

I know for a fact that I am getting £75 p/d less than the other contractor I work with for doing the same role, but that doesn't bother me as I think good luck to him for having a better agency and joined work before me when the rates were a bit higher. No big deal.

I don't need to know the commission agreed between the agent and the Client, but I want to know the true min/max scale proposed by the Client for the role. So if it is £300-£400 then the agent shouldn't pretend it is £250-£325 so that he keeps this extra on top of the agreed confidential commission with the Client. Usually they advertise these as "Negotiable" and ask for your rate first.

It really comes down to deciding if the Agency is acting as your employer or your agent? As an employer I think they are entitled to offer what the market pays, but as an agent they should represent your best interest and only get paid the confidential commission agreed with the client.

You really are a prize fool!

Who says they are your agent????????

TW@T



Tone

[Android]

My own view is that contractors are big enough and ugly enough to take their own responsibility for how they are treated by agencies and that such a well paid group of highly educated intelligent people are perfectly capable of looking after themselves - people like you bleating that they are victims doesnt stack up. The last thing anyone needs is a group of busybodies chucking red tape over everything just in order to have power and influence of their own. There is no dominance of any one agency and anything they do that is severely wrong is covered by the laws of the land anyway.

If you want transparency of charges/margins then legislation would have to apply it to the sale of goods and services across business everywhere. Apart from the cost of implementing and poilicing this interference all this would do would be to stimulate the small minded attitude that has become so prevalent of "what's in it for him".

You also have to ask yourself what is the worst thing that can happen? I would say its not having your bills paid and the agency going bust. You can check out the agency and withold timesheets if they fail to pay you - what else is there.

Anyway there is a group called the EAS and its people people clearly don't have much to do. Their report looks like they've really struggled to put something together to justify their existence and tax payers money.

A 20 billion plus industry with less than 1000 complaints is pretty impressive.


p://www.bis.gov.uk/assets/biscore/employment-matters/docs/e/12-498-employment-agency-standards-report-2010-11.pdf

Contractors don't complain, we are used to being in the firing line and treated as disposable assets, It is part of the job.

[Android]

I would be very exited to learn how you would force a seller to reveal his margin, if he didnt want to.

I was on one gig where a coworker doing the same job as me discovered he was on £50 a day less. He went ballistic , because the client had insisted that the agencies declared their margin and we were both quoted 17%.
So after world war iii had broken out the agency explained that their profit margin was 17% but they had to layer in a training margin, an introductory chaperoning margin and some other bolks.
He started whining about training and the agent said 'you should have asked' and the introductory stuff - 'well we sent you a map of how to get to the site'

This guy was ripped off BECAUSE of the declared margin. Whats the point of negotiating if their is no wriggle room ?

The Client may judge that he requires a little more skill in one direction so any two contractors working together doing the same role may not be equally productive in that area of expertise, so the rate may be slightly different, so what?

I know for a fact that I am getting £75 p/d less than the other contractor I work with for doing the same role, but that doesn't bother me as I think good luck to him for having a better agency and joined work before me when the rates were a bit higher. No big deal.

I don't need to know the commission agreed between the agent and the Client, but I want to know the true min/max scale proposed by the Client for the role. So if it is £300-£400 then the agent shouldn't pretend it is £250-£325 so that he keeps this extra on top of the agreed confidential commission with the Client. Usually they advertise these as "Negotiable" and ask for your rate first.

It really comes down to deciding if the Agency is acting as your employer or your agent? As an employer I think they are entitled to offer what the market pays, but as an agent they should represent your best interest and only get paid the confidential commission agreed with the client.

[d000hg]

ePetitions can be ignored or brushed under the carpet if the MPs so decide, but that's not the point. They exist as a way MPs can at least know what the public think is important... MPs' job is not to cave in to whatever is popular but make the decisions they consider best.

[minestrone]

Someone shoot this tulipe sockie.

[Android]

Oh. Right then.

I won't be signing up for your petition. I don't believe in red tape, it's up to me to get the best rate that I can, not the BIS (who are as useful as a chocolate fire guard, btw).

Thanks all the same.

ePetition is a mugs game invented by politicians to give the masses the illusion of power. I rather waste my time on a pint of Guinness.

[Android]

I can answer how it worked for me in Canada , which was my introduction to contracting.

Its a flat transparant rate , but quite high.
20% is acceptable, or higher with a "cashback" if you get a 100% reference from the client and stay a full term.

It could actually be worse, in Auckland New Zealand (when I was there in 2009) you had to PAY UP FRONT to "register" your CV with an agent.. There's jack all work there at the mo though

Thanks for your excellent and informative feedback, Clearly it is possible to be transparent yet do the business profitably even though it probably generates more paperwork to manage the references & refunds.

I can live with 20% if the Canadian system makes it beneficial for both agents and contractors to do well by each other. What is your opinion of UK vs Canadian Agencies in the way it has affected your work, negotiation and potential earnings?

One thing for sure, I woudn't say no to CashBack.

[rd409]

Grudge agains agencies? Well that is nonsense, every Contractor has a good and bad relationship with all sorts of agencies, On my first contract back in 1997 I went for a job interview for a £22 role, but not did I only get the job but the agency "Computer People" increased that to £24.50 (Yes UP) without me asking for it because they represented me. WOW. Can any of you honestly expect this to happen today? NO. Sadly the business has changed and the filtering is now seldom face to face, we now have reduction to agreed rates, less interviews if you are not cheap enough, demanding more skill than actually needed, and I am hardly the only one here who hasn't been lied to or shafted by some drone or another if the forum here is to be believed? Leveling the field will only hurt those peddling contracts for as low as £9 P/H because they know that first timers are desperate to break into the industry and are ripe for exploitation.

Don't take my word for it, just check out the different rates advertised by different agencies for the exact advertised contract.

Is it just me to find "Android" complaining about "Drones" funny?

Ahh it is the "Star wars Day"

[Bunk]

I was in a gig in Edinburgh...

Half the office could see I was not coding but arguing with spod about grave digging rabbits.