Reply to: Aspergers

[darrenb]

Evolution isn't some hippy quest for perfect consciousness.

I'll recommend this book to you and leave it at that.

Star Maker - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[doodab]

It's an anachronism based on the reptilian part of the brain. An evolutionary dead end.

Evolution isn't some hippy quest for perfect consciousness. It's an arms race. Like most species we compete among ourselves for mates, and any traits which would increase the chance of successful reproduction (like a certain amount of selfishness, but not too much, and a certain amount of altruism, but not to much) will be selected for. If selfishness wasn't useful it wouldn't be so prevalent.

In fact there is a strong argument that altruistic and selfless behavior is ultimately selfish, in that the reason we indulge in behaviors which benefit the group and society is because it ultimately benefits us as individuals. Even in our wildest utopian dreams we imagine a society in which everybody's desires are fulfilled, not a world where desire doesn't exist.

How do you envisage this society of anti lizard people functioning? Why would they bother to live?

[darrenb]

I don't think selfish actions are fundamentally pointless TBH, they evolved with good reason in much the same way as altruistic ones did.

It's an anachronism based on the reptilian part of the brain. An evolutionary dead end.

[Fred Bloggs]

Well quite. That's why it surprises me!

Unless they use a different mental approach to thinking about indirect or "proxy" relations.

There is a heck of a lot of research going into just this field right now. A lot of it is being done at Cambridge (I can't remember the name of the guy doing it, but he's the brother of the actor who did the Borat film).

[SueEllen]

What really worries me is that I can relate to that.

No need to get tested.

A mate of mine statements school children as part of her job.

There are cases where she has a talk with the parents. She tells them that giving their child a statement will hinder them due to where they are on the scale i.e. on the mild end where they have already worked out coping mechanisms.

Off course if the child doesn't have helpful, mainly middle class parents they get statemented but then they normally also have much bigger problems.

[NotAllThere]

For him, abstract is easy. It's real world that's tricky. He just does, e.g. proxy. He doesn't worry about what the implementation is or how it actually works. Which is also how he's learned to relate to people fairly well - uses some basic rules, without worrying about the why.

[OwlHoot]

Why?

It's actually a stereotype of someone with autism/Aspergers that they are brilliant at Maths and/or Computing.

Well quite. That's why it surprises me!

Unless they use a different mental approach to thinking about indirect or "proxy" relations.

[Fred Bloggs]

Just in case, just don't leave him near a computer for to long.

Too late for that!

[MarillionFan]

That's very true and also why these conditons are referred to as "Autistic spectrum disorders". IE - There is a very wide range of affliction and ability. Luckily our child is relatively mildly affected but fortunately is extremely talented at maths.

Just in case, just don't leave him near a computer for to long.

[Fred Bloggs]

Why?

It's actually a stereotype of someone with autism/Aspergers that they are brilliant at Maths and/or Computing.

That's very true and also why these conditons are referred to as "Autistic spectrum disorders". IE - There is a very wide range of affliction and ability. Luckily our child is relatively mildly affected but fortunately is extremely talented at maths.

[SueEllen]

That surprises me because, as doodab said in so many words, the underlying difficulty for people on the autistic spectrum is an inability to deal mentally with second order representations.

Why?

It's actually a stereotype of someone with autism/Aspergers that they are brilliant at Maths and/or Computing.

[OwlHoot]

I know an Aspergic chap. Extremely bright, PhD in bio-informatics, happily married. Excellent programmer. ...

That surprises me because, as doodab said in so many words, the underlying difficulty for people on the autistic spectrum is an inability to deal mentally with second order representations.

In everyday terms, that means "putting yourself in others' shoes". But on a more abstract level, I'd expect them also to have problems manipulating pointers and closures and reflections etc, the sort of "indirect" programming contructs encountered in most modern programming languages.

[NotAllThere]

I know an Aspergic chap. Extremely bright, PhD in bio-informatics, happily married. Excellent programmer. He's learned how to not be manipulated, but still has difficult knowing how to respond correctly socially, on occasion.

[doodab]

Depends on what is meant by "rewards". In such a world, the concept would have a very different meaning. After all, what's the point of cheating to get a billion dollars if you and everyone else already has a billion dollars?

We have become so committed to our selfish actions that we are reluctant to admit the fundamental pointlessness of them...

That's the joy of abstract mathematics. Reward simply means something some people want enough that they think about how to get it. It could be anything.

I don't think selfish actions are fundamentally pointless TBH, they evolved with good reason in much the same way as altruistic ones did.

The lack of suspicion and machination in Aspergers sufferers is just a symptom of a more general inability to empathise and understand the workings of other peoples minds. This can also result in them being just as selfish or even more so than other people, so the chances of utopia spontaneously arising in a world populated by Aspergers sufferers is no higher than it is in the world we have today IMO.

[darrenb]

Game theory more or less dictates that such a situation would be unstable. Even the slightest tendency to cheat would have massive rewards for the individual so such behavior would evolve again quickly.

Depends on what is meant by "rewards". In such a world, the concept would have a very different meaning. After all, what's the point of cheating to get a billion dollars if you and everyone else already has a billion dollars?

We have become so committed to our selfish actions that we are reluctant to admit the fundamental pointlessness of them...