Reply to: The next German Chancellor will be a Green

[Mich the Tester]

The next German Chancellor will be a Green what though?

[shaunbhoy]

The next German Chancellor will be a Green what though?

[BlasterBates]

There were always plans to build more coal fired power stations. There has been since well before they decided to extend the life of the nuclear power stations. The plans were not cancelled when they decided to extend the life of the nuclear power stations. Ergo, they knew and have always known they were going to build more coal fired power stations because they have been planning to do so all along. So the cost of carbon trading credits ought not to be a surprise.

Kosten für Energiewende: Steuerzahlerbund warnt Merkel vor Verfassungsbruch - Deutschland - Politik - Handelsblatt

Ein Turbo-Atomausstieg wird nach Einschätzung von Experten immense Kosten verursachen

Which means a shutting down Atomic power stations will cost an enormous amount of money.

[doodab]

The plan to build more coal fired power stations was in place before the decision to prolong the life of nuclear power stations was made in the first place. It's hardly a major surprise.

No the current government had reversed the Atomic shut down, but now they've reversed that (double reverse), with the net effect that all the carbon savings they've made over the last few years will be wiped out, as pointed out by the editor of the Handelsblatt.

There were always plans to build more coal fired power stations. There has been since well before they decided to extend the life of the nuclear power stations. The plans were not cancelled when they decided to extend the life of the nuclear power stations. Ergo, they knew and have always known they were going to build more coal fired power stations because they have been planning to do so all along. So the cost of carbon trading credits ought not to be a surprise.

[BlasterBates]

The plan to build more coal fired power stations was in place before the decision to prolong the life of nuclear power stations was made in the first place. It's hardly a major surprise.

No the current government had reversed the Atomic shut down, but now they've reversed that (double reverse), with the net effect that all the carbon savings they've made over the last few years will be wiped out, as pointed out by the editor of the Handelsblatt.

[doodab]

It's not the moratorium, in fact energy prices won't be affected this year, the main problem is actually the "Carbon Trading Certificates". Basically due to EU rules in 2013 there will be (massive) surcharges on fossil fuel generation, and bitter reality is that if you shut down atomic power you replace it with fossil fuel, just a fact of life, because renewables don't produce much most of the time. Of course maybe in 20 years maybe the North-Sea will be producing massive amounts of cheap energy, in the meantime because there's no global "carbon" treaty, countries like Brazil, China and India will be competing with their cheap energy and Europe get's saddled with huge elecricity bills.

The plan to build more coal fired power stations was in place before the decision to prolong the life of nuclear power stations was made in the first place. It's hardly a major surprise.

[BlasterBates]

It's not the moratorium, in fact energy prices won't be affected this year, the main problem is actually the "Carbon Trading Certificates". Basically due to EU rules in 2013 there will be (massive) surcharges on fossil fuel generation, and bitter reality is that if you shut down atomic power you replace it with fossil fuel, just a fact of life, because renewables don't produce much most of the time. Of course maybe in 20 years maybe the North-Sea will be producing massive amounts of cheap energy, in the meantime because there's no global "carbon" treaty, countries like Brazil, China and India will be competing with their cheap energy and Europe get's saddled with huge elecricity bills.

[doodab]

I watched "Presse Club" on Sunday, the German Sunday journalists talkshow. This is what the exit from Atomic power means. In 2013 due to the fact that several atomic powerstations will have been switched off and the suppliers will have to buy extra electricity from abroad and expand fossil fuel generation, Electricity prices will be up by 50% (due to having to buy Carbon trading certificates). It would be impossible for producers to replace it with renewables, compunded by the fact that all generators are now refusing to pay into the renewable energy fund, because they have to close Nuclear power stations. For Germany's chemical, steel, aluminium and paper industry, who's costs are approx 50% energy means they will no longer be able to compete, they're now making noises about being subsidised. As the chief editor of the "Handelsblatt" said Germany would have to become a service economy.

Sounds like deindustrialisation to me,

Sounds like scaremongering to me. Apparently the three month moratorium will cost the energy companies something like €575m. I can't imagine that has anything to do with it.

[DimPrawn]

I watched "Presse Club" on Sunday, the German Sunday journalists talkshow. This is what the exit from Atomic power means. In 2013 due to the fact that several atomic powerstations will have been switched off and the suppliers will have to buy extra electricity from abroad and expand fossil fuel generation, Electricity prices will be up by 50% (due to having to buy Carbon trading certificates). It would be impossible for producers to replace it with renewables, compunded by the fact that all generators are now refusing to pay into the renewable energy fund, because they have to close Nuclear power stations. For Germany's chemical, steel, aluminium and paper industry, who's costs are approx 50% energy means they will no longer be able to compete, they're now making noises about being subsidised. As the chief editor of the "Handelsblatt" said Germany would have to become a service economy.

Sounds like deindustrialisation to me,

Back to the caves.

Ugg.

[BlasterBates]

I watched "Presse Club" on Sunday, the German Sunday journalists talkshow. This is what the exit from Atomic power means. In 2013 due to the fact that several atomic powerstations will have been switched off and the suppliers will have to buy extra electricity from abroad and expand fossil fuel generation, Electricity prices will be up by 50% (due to having to buy Carbon trading certificates). It would be impossible for producers to replace it with renewables, compunded by the fact that all generators are now refusing to pay into the renewable energy fund, because they have to close Nuclear power stations. For Germany's chemical, steel, aluminium and paper industry, who's costs are approx 50% energy means they will no longer be able to compete, they're now making noises about being subsidised. As the chief editor of the "Handelsblatt" said Germany would have to become a service economy.

Sounds like deindustrialisation to me,

[doodab]

I personally won't be in Germany to pay the extortionate taxes and electricity bills that will inevitably follow, but I will be watching with a great deal of fascination from the sidelines, to see how the Germans get on with their new Eco future.

I expect it will go rather well, what with them being world leaders in renewable energy technology and quite a lot of other "green" stuff and the rest of the world jumping on the bandwagon.

[BlasterBates]

Except of course that Germany doesn't have much trouble borrowing money.

Both RWE and E.ON (as well as Siemens) are German companies with lots of German shareholders and the "rules of capitalism" here seem to be just a little bit different, in that they play a longer term game. E.ON aren't taking anyone to court, and all three companies are making significant investment in renewable energy.

E.ON - Power and Gas - Investors - Stock - Shareholder Structure

RWE AG - Shareholder Structure

I really think the Germans see this as an opportunity as much as a threat.

Yes of course you can keep borrowing money, like Greece did, and for a while it'll be hey ring a ding ding.

I personally won't be in Germany to pay the extortionate taxes and electricity bills that will inevitably follow, but I will be watching with a great deal of fascination from the sidelines, to see how the Germans get on with their new Eco future.

I wonder how quickly large companies like BASF will relocate their production facilities to places where they'll get a reliable electricity supply.

[doodab]

ok ...but anyway the point is they are an "Electricity" provider not just atomic power stations.

Yes but so are E.ON, and I believe it is they who run the grid and generate most of the leccy in Bavaria, not RWE.

[doodab]

The question is do you want to fund your electricity through tax payers money or international investors. Since most European countries are broke, publically funded is not an option, even though there a leftwing loonies that think even when billions of debt they can conjure up further billions to build a new power network. Therefore you have to deal with companies that operate in the interest of their international shareholders. These shareholders will be the same regardless who is running the company, it is highly likely whoever was running it, apart rom a public funded co. would take them to court, because they can This is the trouble with "leftwing" thinking that you can simply suspend the rules of capitalism. You can't, unless you have amassed a huge surplus in the public coffers, which they haven't. It's all been spent.

Except of course that Germany doesn't have much trouble borrowing money.

Both RWE and E.ON (as well as Siemens) are German companies with lots of German shareholders and the "rules of capitalism" here seem to be just a little bit different, in that they play a longer term game. E.ON aren't taking anyone to court, and all three companies are making significant investment in renewable energy.

E.ON - Power and Gas - Investors - Stock - Shareholder Structure

RWE AG - Shareholder Structure

I really think the Germans see this as an opportunity as much as a threat.

[BlasterBates]

ok ...but anyway the point is they are an "Electricity" provider not just atomic power stations.