Reply to: Here we go again

[Francko]

... Some emigrants are intelligent and disserve their jobs and I have many friends in IT and who are emigrant IT workers. On the other hand I have worked with many emigrant IT workers who are less than competent and some that have bogus qualifications.

Of course, but that's true for everybody, emigrants make no exception. Indeed, I would think this masquerade is way harder for foreigners as they don't have the appropriate language skills to cover their inadequacies (and I can show you many examples of natives whose only skill is this one).

[Clog II The Avenger]

I would say we have to stop this.

Stop those bright immigrants that might make UK people look dim and help the state to increase their chav and welfare population. Furthermore, since immigration will be so difficult only criminals will make it here. So UK will be full of chavs and foreign criminals. This is the way to build the nation's wealth!

Sarcasm Franco. The points I wish to make are that I am not against emigration. Emigration should be on a level playing field for all. Some emigrants are intelligent and disserve their jobs and I have many friends in IT and who are emigrant IT workers. On the other hand I have worked with many emigrant IT workers who are less than competent and some that have bogus qualifications. I’ve also come across the ridiculous situation of waiting weeks to be security cleared to start a contract only to find that I am then working along side migrant workers whom can not be security cleared because their country does not hold the appropriate records.

[Fungus]

Almost right.

We should prevent immigration of talented non-EU people who might contribute to our wealth and growth. Whereas we should remove all barriers to chavs, and unskilled workers from Eastern Europe. Oooh. We've done that. Yippee.

I think I'll have another pyrogi thanks.

[Francko]

I would say we have to stop this.

Stop those bright immigrants that might make UK people look dim and help the state to increase their chav and welfare population. Furthermore, since immigration will be so difficult only criminals will make it here. So UK will be full of chavs and foreign criminals. This is the way to build the nation's wealth!

[Skeptical]

There already is a point based program that allows IT workers to immigrate without a job offer. I can't open the official website but if you google for HSMP you can probably find the scoring system...

[xoggoth]

Depends how the points are set. The usual unthinkingly crude system "oh we have a 5% rise in notified vacancies this year, let's lower the points" is not the way. In any complex economony there are going to be various leads and lags in demand. To simply respond to every short term shortage, while not equally chucking them out during every downturn is nonsensical.

The points need to be set high to ensure that only those with skills/wealth well above the British average are allowed in. Immigration of the average simply expands the total economy at the expense of our quality of life while doing nothing for standard of living. Average immigrants simply create their own demand.

[expat]

The fact is there are very few countries that will accept emigrants or be it even on a points system.

The point I’m making is that the UK has an open door policy, not for the sake of the economy but for gerrymandering.

Eg. If a Bulgarian IT worker wants to come an work in the UK he can. I a UK IT worker wants to work in Bulgaria he cant.

From 1st January 2007 you should be able to work in Bulgaria, if you are an EU citizen.

The points system is exactly what has worked for succesful advanced countries like Oz, NZ, and Canada, that have gained from their immigration.

Can you support the accusation that the UK immigration policy (which could hardly be described as "open door") is designed for gerrymandering? I am guessing here but I suppose you mean to support the Labour vote? I'd guess that economic migrants tend to be conservative and libertarian compared to the UK average. So a points system for skilled immigration would help the economy (though it might not be good for your job prospects - sorry!) but be bad for the current government. Where's the gerrymander?

[Clog II The Avenger]

Effingham in Berks

<<I dont see what your getting at here, your original post claimed it would opent the flood gates and that UK workers are denied the same option.

Then you say it wont work because you have been denied entry because you didnt meet the points requirement.

Finally you post a quote supporting the system and calling for the points threshold to be set high to *stop* the country being flooded by immigrant workers.>>

I did not bring up the point about working in NZ, Australia or similar countries.

The fact is there are very few countries that will accept emigrants or be it even on a points system.

The point I’m making is that the UK has an open door policy, not for the sake of the economy but for gerrymandering.

Eg. If a Bulgarian IT worker wants to come an work in the UK he can. I a UK IT worker wants to work in Bulgaria he cant.

[Dundeegeorge]

Bi-lingual

[QUOTE=expat]

It is the case for Australia, New Zealand, and Canada, that it is possible to have enough points for immigration without having a job offer. If you can't actually rustle up the job offer, then it doesn't seem unreasonable to me that you're going to have to have some other good points.

As DaveB said, as long as you score enough points without the job offer, you can immigrate without a job offer. And it is possible so to score.

Since the reason why you're being allowed to immigrate (in the categories of which we speak) is your potential skilled contribution to the country's economy, I'm not surprised that you get points for being young. Personally I'm disappointed: I'm already too old for Australia and will soon lose New Zealand too, which is a shame because I (unfortunately) foresee a good few productive years ahead of me yet before I retire. But I see why they do it.

Likewise, Canada's unique linguistic situation makes English/French bilingualism a very good point if you want to go there (et heureusement ils n'imposent aucune limite d'age )

Actually it's a fair point. Presumably in the application for the UK it would depend where you wanted to go.
Midlands, Kossovon must be spoken, North, hindi, Wales, english and so on

[expat]

[QUOTE=Clog II The Avenger]

Actually they can, Australia and New Zealand, that I know of, already operate such schemes. Fill in the form, tot up the points and as long as you score higher than the current threshold, you're in. You dont have to have a job already to get in, it just scores extra points if you have.

This is not the case. I have used the points system and unless you have loads of moneyor are young there is no chance, and in the case of Canada one needs to be fluent in French as well and English to get the required number of points.

It is the case for Australia, New Zealand, and Canada, that it is possible to have enough points for immigration without having a job offer. If you can't actually rustle up the job offer, then it doesn't seem unreasonable to me that you're going to have to have some other good points.

As DaveB said, as long as you score enough points without the job offer, you can immigrate without a job offer. And it is possible so to score.

Since the reason why you're being allowed to immigrate (in the categories of which we speak) is your potential skilled contribution to the country's economy, I'm not surprised that you get points for being young. Personally I'm disappointed: I'm already too old for Australia and will soon lose New Zealand too, which is a shame because I (unfortunately) foresee a good few productive years ahead of me yet before I retire. But I see why they do it.

Likewise, Canada's unique linguistic situation makes English/French bilingualism a very good point if you want to go there (et heureusement ils n'imposent aucune limite d'age )

[John Galt]

Actually more like shotting the horse after the door has been blown off its hinges

[John Galt]

Isn't imposing a points system now a bit like shutting the door after the horse has bolted?

[DodgyAgent]

[QUOTE=Clog II The Avenger]

Actually they can, Australia and New Zealand, that I know of, already operate such schemes. Fill in the form, tot up the points and as long as you score higher than the current threshold, you're in. You dont have to have a job already to get in, it just scores extra points if you have.

This is not the case. I have used the points system and unless you have loads of moneyor are young there is no chance, and in the case of Canada one needs to be fluent in French as well and English to get the required number of points.

There are loads of comments like this on the BBC site

<<Added: Tuesday, 7 March, 2006, 10:18 GMT 10:18 UK

It's about time. Now lets see the points set at a suitably high level. I'm emigrating to Australia and have just met the points level required despite a degree, 10 years in IT, no criminal record, full medical, employment check, and loaning the Australian government £45000 for 12 months. Oh, and I'm only 30, in 4 years it would be impossible to migrate.

My experience is that it will make my country of choice better once I finally emigrate. This benefits EVERYONE.

Steve, London >>

I hate to piss on your parade but you will need a criminal record

[DaveB]

Actually they can, Australia and New Zealand, that I know of, already operate such schemes. Fill in the form, tot up the points and as long as you score higher than the current threshold, you're in. You dont have to have a job already to get in, it just scores extra points if you have.

This is not the case. I have used the points system and unless you have loads of moneyor are young there is no chance, and in the case of Canada one needs to be fluent in French as well and English to get the required number of points.

Right, so you didnt have the high scoring skills to get the points to get in. Whats the problem? Apart from the fact that you dont agree with the weighting on the scoring system in Canada?

There are loads of comments like this on the BBC site

<<Added: Tuesday, 7 March, 2006, 10:18 GMT 10:18 UK

It's about time. Now lets see the points set at a suitably high level. I'm emigrating to Australia and have just met the points level required despite a degree, 10 years in IT, no criminal record, full medical, employment check, and loaning the Australian government £45000 for 12 months. Oh, and I'm only 30, in 4 years it would be impossible to migrate.

My experience is that it will make my country of choice better once I finally emigrate. This benefits EVERYONE.

Steve, London >>

I dont see what your getting at here, your original post claimed it would opent the flood gates and that UK workers are denied the same option.

Then you say it wont work because you have been denied entry because you didnt meet the points requirement.

Finally you post a quote supporting the system and calling for the points threshold to be set high to *stop* the country being flooded by immigrant workers.

[Clog II The Avenger]

[QUOTE=DaveB]Actually they can, Australia and New Zealand, that I know of, already operate such schemes. Fill in the form, tot up the points and as long as you score higher than the current threshold, you're in. You dont have to have a job already to get in, it just scores extra points if you have.

This is not the case. I have used the points system and unless you have loads of moneyor are young there is no chance, and in the case of Canada one needs to be fluent in French as well and English to get the required number of points.

There are loads of comments like this on the BBC site

<<Added: Tuesday, 7 March, 2006, 10:18 GMT 10:18 UK

It's about time. Now lets see the points set at a suitably high level. I'm emigrating to Australia and have just met the points level required despite a degree, 10 years in IT, no criminal record, full medical, employment check, and loaning the Australian government £45000 for 12 months. Oh, and I'm only 30, in 4 years it would be impossible to migrate.

My experience is that it will make my country of choice better once I finally emigrate. This benefits EVERYONE.

Steve, London >>